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Winnchester Engravers???
only winchesters
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In going through my reference material, I've found the following Master engravers worked at Winchester.
Conrad F. Ulrich Jr 1868-1873 and 1910-1917
Alden G. Ulrich 1919-1949
Herman Lee Ulrich 1868-?
John Ulrich 1868-1919
John A. Gough 1900s?
Angelo A. Stokes 1900s
Nick Kismut Post-war
John Kismut Post war
The above were all Master Engravers by the time thier Winchester careers were over. I've heard of only one trainee and that was Pauline Merle, who left when the Custom Shop closed.
How many other engravers worked at Winchester over the years? Also you don't hear much about the "wood carvers", the only Master Carver I've heard of was John Durkin who was with Winchester I believe from the 60's to the 80's anyone know of others?
Anybody have more info on this? (Bert?)
Thanks! Regards Dave
Conrad F. Ulrich Jr 1868-1873 and 1910-1917
Alden G. Ulrich 1919-1949
Herman Lee Ulrich 1868-?
John Ulrich 1868-1919
John A. Gough 1900s?
Angelo A. Stokes 1900s
Nick Kismut Post-war
John Kismut Post war
The above were all Master Engravers by the time thier Winchester careers were over. I've heard of only one trainee and that was Pauline Merle, who left when the Custom Shop closed.
How many other engravers worked at Winchester over the years? Also you don't hear much about the "wood carvers", the only Master Carver I've heard of was John Durkin who was with Winchester I believe from the 60's to the 80's anyone know of others?
Anybody have more info on this? (Bert?)
Thanks! Regards Dave
Comments
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.
Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
Former NSSA All American
Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
MO, CT, VA.
Louis D. Nimschke (1932 1832 - 1904) was the first Winchester engraver of note. He engraved Winchester firearms from the 1860s through the 1870s. Gustave Young (who primarily engraved for Colt) also engraved a few Winchesters.
Herman Leslie Ulrich was the next most influential engraver for Winchester. His tenure at Winchester began July 29th, 1870 (after apprenticing under Gustave Young and Herman Bodenstein). His younger brother John has hired by Winchester in November 1968 (as an assembler). Herman's elder brother Conrad F. was hired in 1870. Of the three brothers, Herman was the better engraver, but Conrad was also very talented. John (who for unknown reasons is the better known) was the least talented of the three.
Late in the year 1885, Winchester hired William E. Stokes. His first work was a Model 1873 rifle that shipped on March 7th, 1886. W.E. Stokes engraved for Winchester up to WW I.
John A. Gough joined Winchester in 1907, and he was the primary engraver for the early Model 1912s. He also engraved a fair number of Model 1892, 1894, 1895, 1903, 1905, 1907, and 1910 firearms while working alongside Herman Ulrich and Willam E. Stokes.
Leslie Bordon Ulrich (John's second son) joined Winchester in 1907 as well. He stayed with Winchester until late 1915 or early 1916.
Angelo Stokes (William's son) briefly worked for Winchester from 1904 - 1907.
In April of 1917, Winchester shut down the Design Lab (engraving shop) due to the United States entry into WW I. When WW I finally ended, only William E. Stokes and Herman L. Ulrich were employed full time. John Gough had left during the war to pursue a career in painting, engraving, and selling antiques.
In April of 1920, Alden George Ulrich (Conrad's third son) joined Winchester. Alden started his engraving career with the Marlin Firearms Company. Alden lead Winchester's Design Lab (engraving shop) for the next three decades.
Willam E. Stokes career at Winchester ended May 14th, 1920 when he was unfortunately badly injured in an automobile accident.
Herman L. Ulrich finally retired on December 31st, 1923.
During the greater part of the 1920s, the only engraver employed was Alden G. Ulrich. During the 20s, there was a severe decline in the number of engraved arms, and at the close of 1927, George R. Watrous had recorded a total of only twenty-six arms engraved during that year. From 1927 through 1931, almost no engraving work was accomplished. In 1930 (when the Model 21 was introduced), Alden finally had some new work. Nearly ALL of the Model 21s were engraved by Alden.
In 1930, Winchester retained the services of Rudolph J. Kornbrath, who immediately began his career by engraving many of the Model 12s of that era. He also engraved a number of Model 21 and 42 shotguns, and a few Model 52 rifles. Rudolph J. Korbrath and Alden G. Ulrich were the only engravers employed until late November of 1936, when Kornbrath suffered a massive stroke (at age 54) leaving him partially paralized.
John Kusmit was hired as Alden Ulrich's assistant (to fill Rudolph J. Kornbrath's suddenly vacant position). During the immediate post-war period, Alden Ulrich and John Kusmit engraved a large number of firearms that were presented by John Olin to senior officers of the Allied Armies.
One of Alden's last major works was Model 1894 serial number 1,500,000 (which was presented to President Harry S. Truman May 8, 1948). Alden Ulrich's final contribution to Winchester was the standard set of engraving patterns that were used on the Models 21, 12, and 70 until 1981 (when Winchester was sold to the U.S. Repeating Arms Co.)
There is no mention of Nick Kusmit ever being employed by Winchester.
All of my information was derived from Herbert Houze's book " WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS COMPANY, Its History & Developement from 1865 to 1981"
If you do not have a copy of this book yet, I highly recommend it. Herb Houze is a really nice fellow, and he was a long time Winchester employee. I implicitly trust nearly everything he has written concerning Winchester firearms (unlike George Madis' written works).
Bert H.
Real Men use a WINCHESTER Single-Shot!
WACA Historian & Life Member
I here George Madis once used a Model 1885 Schuetzen rifle as a jack handle. Is that true?
[:0][:p][:D]
Scrappy Doo sleeps with the fishes.
Also he talks alot about Nick Kusmit, in fact he shows Nicks private ledger, (journal of all the pre-64 Md 12's that he did from 1952-1964, and the plate used. Also Nick is the engraver who did Roy Rogers, Robert Taylors and Ernest Borgnine's Md 12's. Actually has pictures of Nick, John, (Master engravers) with Mr. Borgnine. If I recall correctly John passed in the late 1950's and Nick was the remaining engraver for the rest of the pre-64 Winchesters.
Nothing on the "wood carveres" Bert? Of course, since I'm basically just a shotgun guy, (no rifles) I'm interested in those who worked on the shotguns from the 1897-1964.
Thanks again!
Regards Dave
Ray: Your right a Md 21 with a #5 plate was the top of the line when it came out! Since the Grand Americans are post 64, if I recall correctly. What a treasure!! Would love to see pictures of that!!
First, Dave Riffle has some of his information incorrect... Alden did not pass away in 1949, he simply retired.
Second, while Nick Kusmit did engrave a bunch of Winchester Model 12s, he did not do so as a Winchester employee. Herb Houze's information is ironclad in that respect. It was not at all uncommon for many of the talented engravers of that era to work out of their own shops, and that is what Nick Kusmit apparently did.
There are no records that I am aware of that list who all of the specific stock carvers were. It seems that skilled wood workers were either a lot more common, or simply not worthy of the same fame & glory as the steel carvers.
Bert H.
Real Men use a WINCHESTER Single-Shot!
WACA Historian & Life Member
Hello Bert,
I here George Madis once used a Model 1885 Schuetzen rifle as a jack handle. Is that true?
[:0][:p][:D]
Scrappy Doo sleeps with the fishes.
If he did, it supports my position and proves just how ignorant he really was concerning the premier single-shot rifle ever produced!![:0] Owning an original Model 1885 Schuetzen Rifles is still a dream of mine (but one that I will definitely realize sometime in the not so distant future). Gary Quinlan always brings several of his to the Las Vegas Winter show[:p]... I just need to convince him to sell me one without having to give up both legs and one arm[:(].
Bert H.
Real Men use a WINCHESTER Single-Shot!
WACA Historian & Life Member
Not to disagree with Mr. Houze or you Bert. Just passing on what I've been able to find out:
From Ned Schwings book, "The Winchester Model 42" pg. 78 "Inspired by a tradition of great engravers such as Conrad, Herman and John Ulrich; William Gough: and Angelo Stokes, the engravers at Winchester worked hard to uphold the tradition. When production began on the Md 42 in 1933 George Ulrich was the only full-time factory engraver in the New Haven plant. In 1937 John Kusmit began his apprenticeship under George Ulrich. Thus between 1937 and 1949, Winchester had two full time factory engravers. George Ulrich died suddenly Oct.18,1949 while still employed as an engraver at Winchester. John Kusmit was the lone engraver from then to 1950 when Nick joined him to begin his apprenticeship. from 1950 until 1963 John and Nick were the only Winchester factory engravers". It goes on an several times referred to them as the only "factory engravers"
In Ronald Stadt's book, "Winchester Shotguns and Shot Shells", tells how George Ulrich developed the engraving patterns for the Md 21, and that he died in 1949, leaving John Kusmit the only engraver, until he trained his younger brother Nick.
Of course Maddis mentions both, as well as Riffle. Why Mr. Houze failed to say anything about Nick, would be a good question. It's apparent when reading Maddis, Riffle, Schwing, and Stadt, they refer to him as an "in-house" or employed by Winchester.
Also that Riffle, Stadt, and Schwing all state that Ulrich died and not just retired.
The one thing I've learned over the years about "historians", they can all look at a piece of "history", (in this case Winchester Engravers" and all write something just a little bit different. Not that it's wrong, just written differently.
It also amazes me so little is known about the "wood carvers" because to do a Md 12,21, or 42 in a Grade "A" or "B" certainly took some talent that the average checkerer didn't have. Not to mention some of the fine wood carvings on the rifles over the years.
I will have to pick up Houze's book, thanks Bert.
Regards Dave
Herb Houze only covered Winchester's history up to 1981 (when the company was sold to U.S.R.A. Co.). I may have misread the section on Alden G. Ulrich concerning how is tenure at Winchester ended, so I will go back and look at it again.
Frankly, I do not understand Ned Schwing's inclusion of Angelo Stokes as one of the "great engravers" in Winchester's history... he only actually worked at Winchester for a brief period of time (1904 - 1907).
I believe that the disparity between the various authors concerning who Nick Kusmit worked actually for may be a semantics issue. It is my belief that Nick was privately contracted by Winchester to engrave firearms. This, in the strictest (and legal) sense, is different from being "officially" on Winchester's payroll. It also helps to explain why Nick had his own personal journal detailing his work.
As for the other engravers that you mention, it appears to me that they were U.S.R.A. Co. employees. Winchester (Olin Industries) ceased being a "firearms" company when it sold out in 1981.
In summation, this has been an interesting topic, and I would like to thank everyone for their personal contribution to it... except of course that CountryGunsmith dude[;)][:D]
Bert H.
Real Men use a WINCHESTER Single-Shot!
WACA Historian & Life Member
It is easier to get forgiveness than permission.