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Modified Antique guns
dodge69
Member Posts: 949 ✭✭
I have been collecting Winchesters for a good while but I suppose I am not as serious about the guns as I should be if I expect to get a return on my dollar in the future. My question is, lets take a 1873 that has been completely restored a real professional job including being lined in the correct caliber, is it a collectible gun? If it was to be compared to a non restored gun but a gun in good expected shape for the year,I would guess the non restored gun would be worth more and is a collectible.
How do I determine the value of a well restored gun or is it worth what ever the market is willing to pay.
I have been told any gun that has been modified in anyway is no longer a collectible gun or any gun that is completely original but has been restored in any way is no longer a collectible.
I hate to think a well restored all original gun is just a shooter when I know it will more than likely never be shot.
How do I determine the value of a well restored gun or is it worth what ever the market is willing to pay.
I have been told any gun that has been modified in anyway is no longer a collectible gun or any gun that is completely original but has been restored in any way is no longer a collectible.
I hate to think a well restored all original gun is just a shooter when I know it will more than likely never be shot.
Comments
I have been collecting Winchesters for a good while but I suppose I am not as serious about the guns as I should be if I expect to get a return on my dollar in the future. My question is, lets take a 1873 that has been completely restored a real professional job including being lined in the correct caliber, is it a collectible gun? If it was to be compared to a non restored gun but a gun in good expected shape for the year,I would guess the non restored gun would be worth more and is a collectible.
How do I determine the value of a well restored gun or is it worth what ever the market is willing to pay.I have been told any gun that has been modified in anyway is no longer a collectible gun or any gun that is completely original but has been restored in any way is no longer a collectible.
I hate to think a well restored all original gun is just a shooter when I know it will more than likely never be shot.
Restored / modified guns still have value, and maybe collector value. Many cannot afford top notch specimens, and must settle for the "non pristine" guns.
Turnbull says they will not restore a gun that has collectors value as is. But I wonder where they draw the line.
My question is, lets take a 1873 that has been completely restored a real professional job including being lined in the correct caliber, is it a collectible gun?
The gun still has value and someone will still pay for it. . .just probably not quite as much as what an "unmolested" specimen might be worth.
"Collectible" means different things to different people. Some people collect rare postage stamps, but others collect swizzle sticks. So long as someone wants to collect it, its collectible.
quote: If it was to be compared to a non restored gun but a gun in good expected shape for the year,I would guess the non restored gun would be worth more and is a collectible.
This is typically true. Note that a good restoration doesn't destroy ALL the value of a gun, it just erodes a lot of the desirability (ie value) from traditional gun collectors standpoint. Gun collectors, like most antique collectors, prize original condition. Restoration, obviously, destroys original condition.
quote:How do I determine the value of a well restored gun or is it worth what ever the market is willing to pay.
EVERYTHING is only worth what someone else is willing to pay, and that amount can (and sometimes does) change from day to day, or week to week, subject entirely to supply and demand.
For example, a given gun could be worth "$X", but then next week the same gun is featured in the hands of a popular character in a movie or on a TV program and suddenly its worth "$2X".
Or a gun could be worth "$X", but suddenly a bunch of privately held ones get released onto the marketplace all at once, and how its worth "$0.75X". These kinds of things happen.
quote:
I have been told any gun that has been modified in anyway is no longer a collectible gun or any gun that is completely original but has been restored in any way is no longer a collectible.
Not true; see above.
Believe me, if you had an original 1873 Winchester rifle, that someone merely patched a crack in the stock, or swapped out one part, it would still be pretty darn collectible!
quote:
I hate to think a well restored all original gun is just a shooter when I know it will more than likely never be shot.
Its up to you to decide what should and shouldn't be shot.
Some people buy brand new guns, put them in the vault, and never shoot them, hoping that one day they'll be "collectible".
Other people have no problem shooting old military guns, even ones with legitimate collectors value.
When I hit the lotto I'd buy some of Turnbull's work because I think they will shoot and they look nice to boot. I would also support a few of the custom gunsmiths for much of the same reasons.
Because of this restored arms that are done by pro's like Turnbull, have become much more acceptable. Certain well healed gun snobs, who have been collecting since JFK was President. Will always bad mouth them,though. If you don't have Warren Buffetts money, you do what you have to do.
For example, 15 years ago, you could buy all the unissued military surplus Yugo SKS rifles you liked for under $100 each. These were considered "junk" guns and people would have laughed at you if you said they were "collectible". Now, for a variety of reasons, these have appreciated considerably in price, to the point where they cost $350(+) and not all that easy to find anymore. Are they "collectible" now? How about 50 years from now?
As another example, I remember hearing again and again that the rebuilt "Frankenstein" Russian Capture WWII German Mauser rifles were worthless and would never be "collectible". Meanwhile, the supply of true "unmolested" WWII era German Mausers has entirely dried up and prices on these have shot through the roof to the point where they're just not affordable for the average "Joe Schmoe" shooter anymore.
For a while, if you wanted an affordable Mauser for actual shooting, the Russian captures were really the only game in town. Meanwhile, since the supplies of THESE have finally now dried up, even the "non collectible" rebuilt Mausers have started to go up in value. Are they "collectible" now? There definitely is a market for them, that's for sure.
On older Winchesters, like all these things, there are a fixed number of them out there, and that number can only go down, not up. The only things that can change is the number of them in the marketplace at any given time, and the overall demand. As more and more people get into shooting (which has been happening) demand may go up, and when that happens reworked guns that have been traditionally less desirable in the past may be more desirable in the future.
The point is this. Even though a restored older gun may not be "as collectible" or as valuable as one in original condition (let alone one in original condition and great shape), its a mistake to assume it can never appreciate in value, or that its not "collectible". Both these things are probably empirically false.
The one big mistake that people make when they have decided to restore a Winchester is not considering the cost involved in having it done. In the vast majority of cases, that cost is not 100% recoverable.
Let me give you an example;
You bought an old Winchester Model 1873 Sporting Rifle 44 WCF several years ago for $2,200. It is a plain Jane standard gun (24-inch round barrel, full mag, plain walnut stocks, standard sporting sights), and it is in 30% graded condition, no major defects, decent wood, and a clean shootable bore. Currently, you could expect to get $2,000 - $2,400 for it (your money back). Instead, you decide to send it off to a well known restoration shop to bring it back to its original glory... price tag for the work $2,500. After getting it back in your hands, it looks way to pretty to shoot it (which you frequently did when it was still a 30% but all original rifle. So, you decide to sell it. You list it here on GunBroker, and being an honest fellow, you state that it has been recently restored. You list it with starting bid of $4,500, and are hoping the bids push it up to at least $4,700 (your total investment in the gun). After several days, and no bids, you ask us here on the ATE forum, "why am I not getting any action on this beautiful restored Model 1873 rifle?" My answer would be, "your asking opening bid price is approximately $1,500 too high." So, you now have a $4,700 Winchester that nobody wants to bid on unless you drop the price tag significantly. The question I have for you now is this... Was your hard earned money well spent?
The example I just gave you has been repeated hundreds of times in just the past several years, and it is not likely to stop in the near future.
This is just my opinion, so take it for what it is worth... more than 95% of all the old Winchesters that could be improved with a restoration should not be for the exact reason I provided in my example above. It simply is not cost effective to restore them.
WACA Historian & Life Member
Really I guess it is what ever a person is willing to pay and what the gun means to him.
Actually if you want to make money with guns I think you need to do what a friend of mine does. He has absolutely no interest in collecting guns. He looks for the best buy he can and sells it next week for $ 50 bucks more.
There is a lot of guns out there and every now and then I find a good buy and it is still in my safe.
Bert and a few of you other guys have helped me a lot even after I made a mistake but it just seems to me I am going to have live with what nice guns I have, shoot em and have fun. The real collectibles are for the guys with the cash and like it was said even the modified and restored old guns are getting out of reach.
Thank all you guys
Are you serious??
Well it all goes back to the buyer and what he wants.
Some are???
forgot you know about winchesters only??
In answer to both of your questions;
Yes, I am serious... why would I waste my time writing a lengthy response if I wasn't serious?
Yes, my primary focus is just with old Winchesters. I do not collect much else, and because the WRACo was such a large and diverse entity, it is almost impossible to run out of new/different things to learn and collect.
WACA Historian & Life Member