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damascus barrel shotgun

dsilvernaildsilvernail Member Posts: 4 ✭✭
edited July 2002 in Ask the Experts
Is there ammo I can use in an old shotgun with damascus barrels? I have a "Batavia Leader" from upstate New York, 12 gauge side by side. Some say I can use low brass others say no only black powder.
Thanks.
Dave
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Comments

  • leeblackmanleeblackman Member Posts: 5,303 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'd say only blackpowder or cordite. You may be able to handload your own low pressure low heat load.

    In my opinion, I would NOT use any factory loaded ammunition.

    If I'm wrong please correct me, I won't be offended.

    The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house fatser than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !
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  • squeakycsqueakyc Member Posts: 204 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Knock out the firing pins and hang it on the wall. Who knows what has been shot through it or how fatigued the barrels are. I've seen some that have blown up. Go buy yourself something safe, why risk your safety.
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  • leeblackmanleeblackman Member Posts: 5,303 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yea, I agree. I wouldn't knock out the firing pins. But I'd definately oil it up real good, and hang it up on the wall.

    If I'm wrong please correct me, I won't be offended.

    The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house fatser than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !
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  • laxcoachlaxcoach Member Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Two other reasons NOT to fire a damascus gun---1) probably a "short Chamber" gun, i.e. chambers are less than the standard 2-3/4" length, and 2) if the barrels don't "ring" when lightly tapped with a hammer, the solder between the barrels has separated from the barrels and rib. You'll likely end up with a parts gun instead of a wallhanger if you fire it!
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  • Dom De LorenzoDom De Lorenzo Member Posts: 18 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dsilvernail,
    Beware of "low brass" shotgun shells in this application. Though not a shot shell expert, I've learned from experienced shot shell reloaders that these shells typically are cheap loads that utilize a fast burning powder and pressure may actually be higher!
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  • 11echo11echo Member Posts: 1,007 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have to agree with everyone else here. Hang it on the wall! IF you tried to shot it you would endanger yourself and the weapon too. Not my specialty, but it probably has some collector value, but I guarantee you'll loose that if the barrels are peeled back like a banana! My 2 cent ...Mark

    "FEAR the Goverment, that fears your ARMS"
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  • nordnord Member Posts: 6,106 ✭
    edited November -1
    Batavia Leader's are pretty good guns. While certainly not the highest quality, they're by no means at the bottom of the ladder.

    Contrary to some of the other comments, damascus doesn't have the reputation of "peeling" back from the muzzle. Failures are usually an obvious process of swelling or splitting alond a weld line.

    That being said... After you've had the gun completely checked for shootability, use nothing but black powder loads. This is what the gun was designed for and what the old girl will safely toss without danger to you or to herself.

    There is some collector value in your gun, but I have no idea about the real condition of the gun. In any case the value won't be that great in comparison with something like a pristine Elcee or such.

    In a way it might be better and simpler to display the Baker and shoot a more modern gun. If that doesn't work for you, remember that your Baker is a 100 year old lady and that she deserves the respect earned by her years.

    Nord
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  • gunsismegunsisme Member Posts: 42 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    If this were my shotgun! I would remove the firing pins! Not only for my safety but, so someone possible in another generation would not destroy a fine old shotgun! I once had a damascus barrel shotgun owned by a great uncle. I let a friend talk me into letting him shoot it with a modern load smokless powder shell. The barrels survived but it broke in half at the action. Not any good even as a wall hanger!
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  • gunsismegunsisme Member Posts: 42 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    If this were my shotgun! I would remove the firing pins! Not only for my safety but, so someone possible in another generation would not destroy a fine old shotgun! I once had a damascus barrel shotgun owned by a great uncle. I let a friend talk me into letting him shoot it with a modern load smokless powder shell. The barrels survived but it broke in half at the action. Not any good even as a wall hanger!
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  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Adamsquailhunter could give you some good pointers here, he shoots damascus barreled guns. I think Nord is on the right track, but believe Adamsquailhunter has his barrels checked annually by a gunsmith with fiberoptics for signs of delamination. Post him a note, I am certain he would be most happy to help.
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  • rhmc24rhmc24 Member Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A damascus barrel can look perfect but be ready to blow. What may have happened to the barrel over the years is rust weakening the internal welds. Damascus barrels were made by winding wire or small rod around a mandrel and forge welding the coil to become a solid wall tube. It was then bored, reamed and finished on the outside. Some of the welds may not have been completely tight to moisture and atmosphere. Over time rust may have got in and done its thing. Early American kentucky rifle barrels were made in much the same way using iron rod or pieces of iron that were forge welded around a mandrel by heating to over red hot and welding by hammering against an anvil. In my work I have cut into a number of Kentucky barrels and saw the above described condition first hand. What they say about damascus is true. I would not shoot one even with black powder although as a kid I fired my Grandfather's damascus shotgun hundreds of times with smokeless. Lucky I guess.
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  • AdamsQuailHunterAdamsQuailHunter Member Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    1. The Captain is going to have Scotty beam a lock on this topic, so I am going to try to sneak this response in under the wire.

    2. I am a old geeser, with more than 50 years experience in the field using Damascus barreled shotguns. I still hunt with them, reload for them, and buy them when I can find them at a price I can afford, the most recent being a Meriden from this auction site.

    3. Ultimately the decision to use this shotgun is going to be yours in consultation with a good gunsmith who is experienced in and has the equipment necessary to check out Damascus barreled shotguns. If you don't know one, I will tell you who mine is and how to contact him. Be aware that he is backlogged for at least 4-6 months and will not get in a hurry to get your gun in and out.

    4. All of my Damascus barreled ladies are checked out on an annual basis using fiber-optic equipment INSIDE the barrel and at RIGHT ANGLES to the axis of the bore of the barrel. Any evidence of impending delamination and the shotgun becomes a "wall-hanger". "rhmc24" will have to go with his experience and I will have to go with mine, but I have never seen one delaminate with a black-powder loading that did not show evidence of impending delamination INSIDE of the barrel first.

    5. If you decide to use this shotgun in consultation with a good gunsmith, I will tell you how to reload for it. You can NOT use modern smokeless loading for it. The pressure profile for black powder loading and modern smokeless powder is completely different. Will the Batavia Leader blow up in your face if you put a 7/8 ounce load through it ---- NO, it was too well made for that. BUT --- you will over stress the shotgun EVENTUALLY and hasten its demise and it MAY delaminate on you. So make your mind up that if you are going to use this shotgun----again in consultation with your gunsmith, you are going to have to do custom reloading for it or find someone who already does for "Cowboy Action" events. Use the little e-mail icon at the top of my post to get in contact with me if you wish me to tell you how to do black powder loading for this shotgun.

    6. If you are discouraged from using it and it was 20 gauge or smaller, I would be more than happy to take it off your hands at a reasonable price. REASONABLE is not "collector's" price, I hunt with them, I am NOT a collector. The same goes for Crescent's, Meriden's, Davenports, Ithaca Crass'es or Lewis'es in 20 gauge or smaller, I will be happy to take them off your hands at a REASONABLE price. I wish I could afford a L.C. Smith, Parker, or any number of fine British doubles, but that is not possible on my income.

    7. If you happen across any "Wanda" shotshell casing --- the clear red plastic ones made in the 60's that you don't want---please let me know. I want them and use them in reloading for my old Damascus barreled ladies.

    8. Last but hardly least----WELCOME to the forum. Please drop by and join us whenever you have a few spare moments.

    Best Regards To You And Yours
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