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Massachusetts C&R handgun sale?

neatgunsneatguns Member Posts: 135 ✭✭
edited November 2010 in Ask the Experts
I sold a Russian 1941 dated TT-33 Tokarev pistol to a buyer in Mass. He is now telling me the FFL's there refuse to transfer it because it is not on a approved handgun roster. I thought there would be an exemption to C&R or 50 year old guns from this list. Does this mean a Mass resident can't buy a Luger, P-38, Radom, Webley or other long out of production gun? I think he needs to talk to some different FFL holders.

Comments

  • nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have attempted to read MA law, as shown in ATF P5300.5, & have found it incomprehensible.

    If the buyer were a C&R licensee, I would ship him any C&R. (And, you are correct, a TT-33 is a C&R firearm.) But, he isn't a C&R licensee, so this is irrelevant; this is just a regular firearms transaction.

    I would think that there would be an exemption for older firearms, & there may be if sold with a trigger lock. But, I really don't know for sure. What I do know is, the buyer should have checked with his local dealer before he committed to buying any gun from out of state. It's up to him to work out the legality with his dealer, find another dealer, or seek clarification from his state authorities, & he should have done it all before getting you involved.

    Neal

    Edit: A state/locality may have a more restrictive firearm law than federal law, but not less restrictive. They do have the right not to recognize a C&R, according to the most recent interpretation, even though you & I know that it violates the Constitution.
  • beantownshootahbeantownshootah Member Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    MA gun law is a morass of deliberately vague and confusing rules, including (IMO blatantly unconstitutional) attorney general regulations that in effect have the force of law, even though they aren't actually law.

    My understanding is that this guys FFL is actually correct. A DEALER may not transfer handguns not on the MA approved list, unless they were in the State of MA prior to '94. Edit: October 1998.

    So unless you have documentation that this particular Tokarev was in the State of MA before '94 October 1998, he can't transfer it legally.

    However, a C&R holder is NOT a dealer, and I believe MA C&R holders *MAY* still import C&R handguns.

    If this guy doesn't have an C&R, he's SOL. If he wants a Tokarev, he'll have to find one for sale already within the State of MA (good luck with that. . .) or get his own C&R.

    But even if he DID have a C&R, the FFL still can't legally transfer the gun to him. He'd have to ship the gun back to you, then have you ship it directly to him (or some other MA C&R licensee).

    And I agree with Nmyers. Its the responsibility of the buyer to follow the local rules and make sure he can claim the gun, not that of the seller.

    So your buyer bought a gun that can't legally be transferred to him via FFL. He screwed up and its his problem, not your problem.

    If you want to be nice, you can offer him a full purchase price refund if he has the gun returned to you at HIS expense.

    I think that's only fair, and that's what I'd do. The buyer should be able to return the gun to you at his expense if he isn't happy with it for any reason. Not being able to possess it legally would qualify, I think!
  • neatgunsneatguns Member Posts: 135 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Actually, he is a C&R holder. I had always heard that Mass did not recognaize a C&R, so I asked him to find a 01 FFL transfer dealer. He thought he could buy the TT-33 on his C&R if I was willing to fill out the seller portion of a FA-10 form from Mass. I'm glad to do it if it is legal under their stupid regulations. I don't need Mass LEO turning my info over to BATF for violating their laws.
    Yes, I wish he had all this straight before he placed the bid. No money has been sent yet. We are trying to figure if there is a legal way to complete the sale.
  • torosapotorosapo Member Posts: 4,946
    edited November -1
    How can Mass not recognize a C&R? It's a fedaeral not state license. How can they not recognize it?
  • Spider7115Spider7115 Member Posts: 29,703 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by torosapo
    How can Mass not recognize a C&R? It's a fedaeral not state license. How can they not recognize it?


    New York State doesn't accept a C&R for handguns.
  • 1KYDSTR1KYDSTR Member Posts: 2,361 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    How can Mass not recognize a C&R? It's a fedaeral not state license. How can they not recognize it?

    As mentioned, convolution (and usurpation) of Federal authority at the state level is not uncommon. The States may have no laws less strick than Federal, but are at liberty (Man I hate to use that word in this response)to confab as many restrictive laws as they so desire that are in excess of Federal authority/rule. I live in Illinois...don't even get me started on this S-hole of a "state" and it's bass ackward, purposely, grieviously unconstitutional rulings that have come down the pike since I wound up here after college. Too bad the wife's work is here, or I would move home to Michigan in a heartbeat and consider these 18 years in Illinois a learning experience as regards Socialism and Corruption.

    One other thought....does the gun have an aftermarket safety? These were often installed on various Tokarevs to aid importation under ATF regulations, and I wonder that if it DOES have the thumb safety installed it might meet requirements for the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts?
  • beantownshootahbeantownshootah Member Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by neatguns
    Actually, he is a C&R holder. I had always heard that Mass did not recognaize a C&R, so I asked him to find a 01 FFL transfer dealer. He thought he could buy the TT-33 on his C&R if I was willing to fill out the seller portion of a FA-10 form from Mass. I'm glad to do it if it is legal under their stupid regulations. I don't need Mass LEO turning my info over to BATF for violating their laws.
    Yes, I wish he had all this straight before he placed the bid. No money has been sent yet. We are trying to figure if there is a legal way to complete the sale.


    Well that's a totally different story.

    I believe it is possible for him to legally complete this sale and take possession of the pistol.

    I'm not really sure if you need to fill out an FA-10 for such a transfer or not, but you probably do.

    I'd suggest getting in touch with GOAL, the MA State gun group. They could probably advise you on this.

    By the way, the relevant date a gun had to be in MA for it to be transferable from out of state is Oct '98, by the way (not '94, as I listed above).
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