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Antique Winchester

dodge69dodge69 Member Posts: 949 ✭✭
edited November 2013 in Ask the Experts
Since the discovery of the Polish Room Records have been found how have they effected the Deignation of Antique? Madis' book has been the standard ,so Im guessing that ATF or other government agancy would use his records at least today, but collectors are probably all over ( ie some dont know of the Polishing Room Records).
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  • dodge69dodge69 Member Posts: 949 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    can an antique winchester 1886 rifle be shipped person to person from USA to UK?
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  • dodge69dodge69 Member Posts: 949 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    are the winchester guns now antiques considering that US reapeating arms went out of bussiness.

    Thankyou and Godbless
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  • dodge69dodge69 Member Posts: 949 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have purchased a antique Winchester. When I received the gun it was found the butt stock had received what I call a more of a compression scratch about 10 inches down one side. I have taken the gun to a antique wood repair service and one of the top gunsmiths in the area and they both feel they can repair the butt stock but it will require the stock to be finished. It is to noticeable not to do anything. It appears to be the original gun stock that has not been refinished. This was not do to poor packing of the gun.

    On close inspection the gunsmith could see the barrel had some time ago been sanded and not really taken care of and there was some light pitting on several spots on the barrel. At this point he feels he can get a very nice finish in the gun with no rust and retain the lettering.

    My question is this, since I am going to have to have the butt stock refinished and I have some light pitting would I be better off to just restore the gun This is a early 1890's gun
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  • 317wc317wc Member Posts: 924 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Lets see some photos of the rifle. I don't know how good your gunsmith is. An antique Winchester, no way would I let anyone do anything to it. Unless it is truly trashed you will diminish the value, maybe quite a bit. Before you do anything to the metal I would soak it in something like Kroil for a day or so and then meticulously (but gently) clean the metal. Then see how bad it truly is. The stock, being original, I would try to live with it personally, but if you have to have it fixed, have the person try raising the dent with heat and water, it will turn to steam and hopefully raise the dent. I have used this technique before but always on a stock I was refinishing, and certainly not an old Winchester. Of course, the rifle may not be correct anyways, so pictures would help us recommend you on what to do.

    Edit: I would be interested in seeing the rifle. I wonder what your gunsmith soaked the barrel in, and how hard did he scrub, and with what, to remove whatever bluing or whatever patina was left, and leave you with silver? Please please put up photos before you have anyone else do anything to it.
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  • perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,105 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If you can do it without Dinging any screws Take the wood of the metal then wrap metal with paper towels and wet them with Kroil Then wrap all of this with saran wrap let sit for 48 Hours then scrub witH COPPER /Brass pot scrubber. Then Wipe all metal with Ballistol and burlap.
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  • dodge69dodge69 Member Posts: 949 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks for getting back. First I do not know how to post a picture on this site.

    This is how you do it:
    http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=259294


    The gunsmith did exactly what you said and soaked the gun,he has been around for a long time. what appeared to be Patina on the barrel was something else and very light sand marks showed up, no blue at all. Definite light pitting in several places on the barrel. Actually the entire gun has been sanded,but very lightly and maybe polished a little.
    He thinks the dent will come out without any sanding but I would have a light line about 1/2 wide and 10 inches long right down the middle of the butt stock. It was just deep enough to get the finish and not the wood and leave the compression mark.
    The gun is 100% original with weak rifles. It has been with a close family for a long time but not well taken care of over the years
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  • Hawk CarseHawk Carse Member Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If the wood has been sanded or the metal polished, then it is not original and you can reasonably do whatever you like to make it look better without hurting the "value."
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  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What Model is it?

    WACA Historian & Life Member

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  • dodge69dodge69 Member Posts: 949 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ok guys, I going to pick the gun up from the gun smith. He did soak the barrel so he could show me the sand marks, very hard to see but they are there and there is light pitting spots on the barrel in several areas and the barrel is now pretty much silver so there is not blue except under the forearm. He did not soak the receiver which has a nice patina color. I looked and can not see the scratches he can see on the receiver he can.
    So now I have a silver barrel with light pitting spots, a receiver, trigger, hammer and lever with some petty nice patina and a butt stock that has a rather large area with the finish scored. A pretty ugly gun.
    I think I am at least going to take the butt stock and fore arm to a antique wood repair place to see what they can do. It is that old dirt red color, and just keep the barrel oiled and live with the dark spots on it.
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  • dodge69dodge69 Member Posts: 949 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well my gun finish problem has been solved. A relative of the owner showed up and had paperwork he was to get the gun when the owner passed. They were good friends and I got my money and expenses back. Shame it is going on a Fireplace in a Rec room. Should be a real rust ball in a few years.
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  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dodge69
    Thanks for getting back. First I do not know how to post a picture on this site.

    The gunsmith did exactly what you said and soaked the gun,he has been around for a long time. what appeared to be Patina on the barrel was something else and very light sand marks showed up, no blue at all. Definite light pitting in several places on the barrel. Actually the entire gun has been sanded,but very lightly and maybe polished a little.
    He thinks the dent will come out without any sanding but I would have a light line about 1/2 wide and 10 inches long right down the middle of the butt stock. It was just deep enough to get the finish and not the wood and leave the compression mark.
    The gun is 100% original with weak rifles. It has been with a close family for a long time but not well taken care of over the years


    I read your last post that you no longer have this rifle.

    I'll still comment though that I'm guessing what you were calling "patina" (that is really not a term used with steels) may have been "cold bluing" someone did to try to make it "look better." Cold bluing will be removed with common gun-cleaning solvents that won't affect original "hot blued" finishes. Either that, or the "color" was rusting (red oxide) that had been oiled or greased, which will give it a dark brown color.

    EDIT: quote:Originally posted by Bert H.

    I beg to differ. The term "patina" is used to describe oxidation layers that develop on the surface of many different base materials, including steel and iron. It is a very commonly used term within the antique firearms (Winchester) collecting communities, and in the sword and knife collecting communities.


    I definitely won't argue with you about how it is being used (particularly how Winchester collectors are using it), but it is not a proper term for the oxidation of steel.

    Chemistry-wise, red oxide on steel isn't stable (it has a water molecule attached). The "patina" on brass, bronze, or other alloys (usually with copper) is a stable substance -- that can actually help to "protect" the underlying metal. (Red oxide) rusting on steel is always destructive to the metal. If you keep it exposed to air it will keep going deeper.

    Definition of "patina": http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/patina
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  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by competentone
    I read your last post that you no longer have this rifle.

    I'll still comment though that I'm guessing what you were calling "patina" (that is really not a term used with steels) may have been "cold bluing" someone did to try to make it "look better." Cold bluing will be removed with common gun-cleaning solvents that won't affect original "hot blued" finishes. Either that, or the "color" was rusting (red oxide) that had been oiled or greased, which will give it a dark brown color.

    I beg to differ. The term "patina" is used to describe oxidation layers that develop on the surface of many different base materials, including steel and iron. It is a very commonly used term within the antique firearms (Winchester) collecting communities, and in the sword and knife collecting communities.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

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  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by forgemonkey
    quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by competentone
    I read your last post that you no longer have this rifle.

    I'll still comment though that I'm guessing what you were calling "patina" (that is really not a term used with steels) may have been "cold bluing" someone did to try to make it "look better." Cold bluing will be removed with common gun-cleaning solvents that won't affect original "hot blued" finishes. Either that, or the "color" was rusting (red oxide) that had been oiled or greased, which will give it a dark brown color.

    I beg to differ. The term "patina" is used to describe oxidation layers that develop on the surface of many different base materials, including steel and iron. It is a very commonly used term within the antique firearms (Winchester) collecting communities, and in the sword and knife collecting communities.



    Guess I've been doing the 'patina' thing wrong all these years, Bert.[:D]


    http://shop.surfinchemical.com/PATINAS-FOR-STEEL-IRON_c8.htm





    Using the term "patina" for rust (the red-oxide type) on steel could be compared to the situation where people use "clip" when referring to a firearm "magazine" -- it is a "common usage" mistake in terms. Although in the case of calling rust "patina," people can often be trying to put a positive name on something negative.

    I don't get upset when people misuse the term "clip" when referring to a "magazine," but I don't like someone trying to describe rust -- or even worse, cold-bluing -- as something "desirable" or "adding value" to an old firearm.

    If you leave that rust "patina" on steel exposed to air (even oil doesn't seal it completely) you will continue to develop deeper and deeper pitting in the steel. On antiques, you want to remove or stabilize any rust if you want to preserve the steel from further destruction.
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