C&R - BATF question

Buddylee

I have had my C&R for 7 years. I have used it
to buy WWI and WWII handguns and rarely a rifle.
Recently I have sold 2 on the internet and found
this a good way to get bucks for increasing
my collection of stuff I really want at this stage
of my life.
I go to about 2 gunshows a month and always
see items that I can buy either with or without
my C&R and could sell on the net and make a few bucks.
Finally the question.
If I buy the above mention guns and sell them on the
net for say $30 to $40 profit and use that money for
increasing my collection, is that dealing?
I am to old to want to spend the remaining years in the
pokey, no pun intended. But, I no longer want to collect
the war stuff and have found a new area of interest, hence,
the question.
Thanks to all, you are a great bunch of guys.
Buddy Lee

aglore

If your doing it to make a profit, you are dealing.

AlleninAlaska aglore@gci.net

Edited by - aglore on 04/11/2002 12:44:53

michael minarik

Yes he 'might' be dealing BUT there is a clause which might be a qualifier in the definition of DEALING if this is his "PRIMARY" source of income....some one smart'r than I should check this out........!!!!!!
Quite frankly, not sure ATF would find you worthy of such a HIGH crime but then again...

budmott

Okay lets try this,

From the BATF FAQ
PROHIBITED
Cannot "engage in the business" of buying and selling curios and relics. The term "engaged in the business" refers to a person or entity that devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. A collector's license only enables the collector to obtain curio or relic firearms interstate
Cannot acquire firearms other than curios or relics using a collector's license. Licensed collectors have no special privileges with regard to firearms that are not curios or relics.
AUTHORIZED
May acquire and dispose of curios or relics at any location.
May dispose of curios and relics to a licensee or a nonlicensee residing in the same State, who is not otherwise prohibited by the GCA, and to any other Federal firearms licensee in any State.

So, If you JUST buy and JUST sell C&R firearms and you are not using for making a livelihood or profit, then you maybe okay. And, if the money that you mentioned, the $40 is put back into YOUR C&R collection, then you maybe okay. Of course if the BATF wants to break in your door and haul your * away, they could do that too.
GEE, that was a whole quarters worth.
Anyone els want to chime in???????
Later,
Bud

Diesel Dummy

I agree, the way I read the rules is that if you're selling to enhance your collection your legal. If your sales are your primary source of income you could be in trouble.

k.stanonik

Sounds to me like that if you sell 3 or 4 a yr your safe, 3 or 4 a month uncle sam may look at ya

LIKTOSHOOT

Copied, as the same question was ask elsewhere. LTS



I received a reply from the Atlanta ATF office today. From it I get the impression that there is "hold" criteria that the ATF uses to determine intent. Here's what their reply says:
WHILE A LICENSED COLLECTOR MAY ACQUIRE CURIOS OR RELICS AND DISPOSE OF SAME FROM A PERSONAL COLLECTION, THE COLLECTOR IS NOT AUTHORIZED TO ENGAGE IN A FIREARMS DEALING BUSINESS IN CURIOS OR RELICS PURSUANT TO A COLLECTOR'S LICENSE. AS STATED IN 27CFR 178.41(d) " IF THE ACQUISITION AND DISPOSITION OF CURIOS OR RELICS BY A COLLECTOR BRING THE COLLECTOR WITHIN THE THE DEFINITION OF A MANUFACTURER, IMPORTER,OR DEALER UNDER THIS PART, HE SHALL QUALIFY AS SUCH. FOR EXAMPLE, IF A COLLECTOR ACQUIRES CURIOS OR RELICS FOR THE PURPOSE OF SALE RATHER THAN TO ENHANCE A COLLECTION, THE COLLECTOR WOULD HAVE TO BE LICENSED AS A DEALER IN FIREARMS UNDER THE GUN CONTROL ACT.
If you check out 27CFR 178.41(d) it mentions "holding". So I take it that if the ATF inspects your bound book and finds multiple purchases of a certain make and/ or model at one time, of which most of them are sold off, and this pattern of purchase and resale is repeated, the collector might have some explaining to do. They ATF didn't answer my question as to whether making a multiple purchase of a model, keeping the best one(s) and selling the rest is "dealing" or "enhancing a collection". Maybe the regs are purposely meant to be ambiguous.
My only concern is that a few folks who abuse the purpose that the 03 license was created for will ruin it for the many who don't.
I'm sure that you will agree that the requirements and cost of obtaining the class 03 FFL are quite easy to meet. You know what happened when they changed the class 01 requirements. Experience has taught me that it's easier and less costly to stay out of trouble than it is to get out of it.

Ed45+P

I have held a C&R for several years and have never sold anything, however, I have the opportunity to enhance my collection and will be selling. I have raised this question with some experienced C&R people and the widely held opinion is that the license does not cause you to surrender ordinary rights to sell your personal property. The information I have seen seems clear that sales must be and are allowed for the collector to enhance his collection. A collector might need to sell 3-4 guns to afford a new one, if he can show he used the sales proceeds to purchase the new collection addition, he is doing what the intent of the license is, which is to collect! This is true of lots of other things. Most states have laws on how many cars you can sell in a year, for example and in many towns its perfectly o.k. to sell your used furniture when you buy new. If, however, you engage in the business of buying and selling used furniture the town will request you get licensed and zoned for this. I might be fooling myself but I interpret what I have read as allowing sales related to the collection. Ed

kimi

This is certainly a worthwhile and interesting discussion as it concerns questions that dealers, collectors, or folks engaged in a hobby(?) need to better understand. It seems to me that Budmott provided a very direct answer to the questions that might be drawn from Buddylee's query. The words he noted under PROHIBITED are, in part, "...the principal objective of livlihood AND profit..." It appears that these are the key words that would be used to correctly identify who is engaged in buying and/or selling firearms to make a living, enhance a collection, or to make a frequent and/or ocassional profit, for whatever reason, other than the principal vehicle to make a living for ones self and/or family, or noticeably improve the standard of living for the same. Again, it appears, that the terms PRINCIPAL and LIVLIHOOD might be the major focus of the noted key words. Obviously, the typical firearm dealer engages in buying and/or selling firearms as a means to make a living, while the typical collector spends a goodly amount of time studying the history and technical aspects of firearms, and then buys and sells them to enhance a collection, while the everday citizen is allowed to buy and sell firearms to a reasonable extent, simply as a hobby, if you will. Do we have an attorney in the audience, or someone who has been-there-and-done-that, or anyone for that matter, that can help us better understand the legal aspects of the subject, and/or related subjects that Buddylee has presented?

Diesel Dummy

WOW!!!!!!!! That's what I said - with a "few"ess words.

kimi

Hehehe. You surely did, Diesel! You can always spot a newbie!
Hehehe. Later friend...jm