HK UPS vs. Glock........need expert advice

buyer7121

I have owned a glock for 7 years and am not too impressed with it. I is ok but the HK usp just seems to be a better quality gun all around. However, I purchased a usc 45 rifle when they came out and think it is verrrry poorly constructed. this is keeping me from buying another hk. what do you guys and gals think? I am looking for feed back from actual hk users not just people that have read the same stuff I have. Also why don't more Law enforcement agencies used these guns?

William81

I have owned several Glocks and HK's over the years. I currently own more Glocks than I should admit to..and 1 HK.I like the HK but I prefer the Glocks. I like the trigger better and my glocks fit my hand better. A good friend of mine is exact opposite. It is an apples/oranges thing....Bottom line is find one that fits your hand and practice....practice...practiceJMPO...for what it is worth...

dheffley

Neither one. go to www.greent.com , and go to "calibers". Then go down to "Misc. Topics" and read the section on Glocks. In that article, the talk about the kb's on the HK UPS and the Glocks. Look for something else. I had one HK and one Glock. I sold the Glock due to exessive breaks. I never had that trouble with the HK, and before reading the article above, I would have recommended it over the Glock. Now, I won't!

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JB

I currently own a Glock 36 and an HK USP compact in .40 Cal. I love both guns very much. I shoot 95% reloads in both guns and tend to like the upper (but within the limit) range. I am not sure but I believe the HK fully encases the casing but the Glock does not. ( The test is to remove the barrel and drop in a bullet , if you can see any casing then the more likely a bulged case when shot and more prone to KB's)The HK is much more accurate but My 36 is perfect for my carry purpose. I put a Tasco Optima on my HK and can shoot the center out of dots all day long. My very basic understanding is that the Glocks are more prone to KB's than are the HK. Both are very high quality guns and should not present any problems to the average shooter

1blitzer

I had a glock 23 and sold it. I currently have a glock 22 and 27. I didn't really like the glock 22, so I bought the H&K USP 40. There is a big difference when you compare the two side by side. Better craftmanship with H&K. The H&k can be changed into different variants and also has an ambi magazine release The H&K is like a porsche and the glock is like an economy volkswagon. I wasn't really impressed with the glock 22. There is too much hype by the Glock cult. The HK shoots great for me. I like the glock 27 for its size and overall performance. Also, I have a beretta 92fs centurion and my locking block has not cracked after thousands of rounds.I use only factory ammunition and I don't try to save a few cents by reloading. If you put garbage in, you will get garbage out or worse. Glocks are used by more agencies due to their simplistic operation and cheap cost around $380 with three mags versus H&K $499 with three mags.[This message has been edited by 1blitzer (edited 10-21-2001).]

smooth_operator

You are right about the H&K USC rifles. For some mundane reason they are prone to breaking. In a previous gun show, I ran across two of these rifles being sold by completely different owners because of the "defects", I was also informed about their quality or lack thereof. However, it wouldnt be an equal comparison if your preference between Glock and HK will be based on one of HK's rifles (eg. what about the 91,93,94,PSG? all great rifles)when youre buying a pistol. In the past decade I have gone through two HK USP's. Both pistols were very reliable and well constructed. On my previous HK USP9, I went through about 13K rds of ammunition in a span of 14 months. To top it off, about 10K of the ammo I used were cheap reloads. Not a single malfunction whatsoever. Currently, I carry a USP compact in 40sw and just about the same thing...no quirks so far @ 1.2K rds. As far as the KB's go, well theres always murphy's law. You just cant be sure about anything (especially when youre comparing it to glock, theyve got their fair share of these problems). Take me for instance; I'm not too particular to SIG's because of a bad experience with their products... go figure. In your case, since you have already made it clear that you are not too impressed with Glock's line of firearms it wouldn't hurt to get an HK. But, dont jump in the water head first, try them out before you buy one. Between these two firearms, the difference is night and day as far as ergonomics is concerned.BOTTOM LINEBoth of these companies are in deep water as far as KB's go. Get the one that feels better in your grasp (and yes, HK's seem to be asthetically superior to Glock)

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Life is the leading cause of death.Everything else is just a contributing factor.[This message has been edited by smooth_operator (edited 10-21-2001).]

Justin Majerle

I have owned an HK USP.45 for the last 4 years....I have never had a jam or any other problem for that matter. I do not care for the glocks at all...they just feel odd (personal preferance) I was not impressed with the USC when it first cam out but I dont see how it reflects on HK's ability to manufacture reliable handguns. As far as hanguns used by law enforcment agencies...I would assume that that is a government contract issue (and I dont think that the government could afford HK pistols as sevice pistols)

stewart

I own a Glock 23, 35, HK USP 40, Walther P99, Beretta 96 Elite, S&W 4026, CZ-75 40 and several other guns in other calibers.Of the above listed guns, the HK is the only one that is fully supported. And yet it has a Kb. In researching this on several different articles including the one on www.greent.com calibers, I have come up with one conclusion. It appears that 99% of the Kb's came from several sources: 180g FMJ,AA #5 powder, and the bullett being pressed too far into the brass either by the factory or through cycling over and over in a weapon causing the bullett to press further into the brass. (This is the one that I think is the biggest threat of a Kb) Here you can get pressures up to 90,000lbs, and it doesn't much matter which gun you own, fully supported or not, a Kb will destroy it.That said, I have shot over 1,000 rounds through the glocks and several hundred rounds through the HK using both 180gr factory loads and reloads purchased through LoadX. No problem with jams or misfires. However, now that I've read these articles, I will go with 165gr FMJ on my next purchase. Back to the guns. Each gun fires differently. The glock has no hammer so you tend not to anticipate the shot like on the HK. I shoot best with my Glock 35. Then my CZ-75 and then the HK, go figure. The Best advice is to go to a range that rents guns, and try a few different brands and models. This is the only way to find out which on will work for you.

jayhunt

I'm an idiot, what's a kb?

Gene B.

A kb stands for, KABOOM! which means your guns literally blows up in your hand.

Gene B.

Heres all the info you need! 1. What is a kB!?"kB!" is shorthand for kaBOOM!, which is the written representation of what happens when one has a catastrophic explosive event in one's firearm, or, for the purposes of this FAQ, one's Glock.2. What causes a kB!?Catastrophic failures may be caused by a variety of problems, but in general a Glock kB! is as a result of a case failure.The case failure occurs when pressure inside the cartridge increases to the point that it cannot be contained by the case and the material of the case fails, allowing hot gases to escape from the ruptured case web at damagingly high velocities.The resulting uncontained forces can blow the magazine out of the gun, emulsify the locking block, cause the tip of the trigger to be snipped off, ruin the trigger bar, rupture the barrel, peel the forward edge of the slide at the ejection port up, and do other nasty things. In general, Glocks tend to contain case failures fairly well, but under some circumstances they can cause injury as well as damage to one's gun. At least one police officer has been injured in a kB! involving a Glock 21 and a Win chester factory overcharge.3. Which Glock models are affected?Firearms journalist Dean Speir has documented many instances of kB!s, all of them in the Models 20-something Glock (.40 S&W, 10mm and .45 ACP). Speir has NO confirmed cases of Glock kB!s in the 9 x 19mm (Models 17, 17L, 18, 19 and 26) or the .380 ACP/ 9 X 17mm (Models 25 and 28).4. Why do kB!s occur in these Glock models?Reports compiled by Speir from various independent laboratories are inconclusive as to one single cause for the catastrophic failures.There do, however, appear to be several contributing factors which COLLECTIVELY may induce catastrophic case failures:* Firing out of battery. Most Glocks will do this to some degree, especially those improperly maintained.* Significantly overpressure rounds. These occur mostly in homemade reloads or in commercially remanufactured ammunition, but have occurred in factory ammunition as well.* The lack of full case support in the critical area over the feed ramp of all large caliber (.40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP) Glock pistols.Ostensibly as a measure to promote feed reliability, Glock chamber mouths are slightly oversized. One can test this by removing the barrel from the Glock, dropping a factory round into the chamber, and observing that there is brass exposed at the six o'clock position. Take a fired case and note that there is a slight engraving if not actual bulge around the case web, which is most pronounced in the area of the case which, upon firing, was in the six-o'clock position.* The use of personally reloaded or commercially remanufactured ammunition utilizing cartridge cases of indeterminable generation. Unlike many rifle handloaders, many of those who reload for handguns do not as a habit separate their fired cases by generation, and each time a case is re-sized and reloaded, the brass "works" and weakens. kB!s have been documented with factory ammunition, but most of them occur with either commercial or homemade reloads.5. Do kB!s occur in other guns or just in Glocks?kB!s do, of course, occur in other guns, but no one appears to be keeping accurate statistics for most of them. Many 1911-style handguns have partially unsupported case mouths, and numerous case separations have occurred in these guns. Early .38 Supe r barrels were particularly susceptible. Gunwriter Frank James has documented a number of kB!s in HK USP .40 pistols, which *do* have fully supported chambers.6. What is the relationship between reloads and kB!s?Most kB!s occur with commercially remanufactured or personally reloaded ammunition.Successive re-sizing and firing of a case result in eventual weakening of the brass, increasing the probability of case failure. The partially unsupported chamber in the Glock exacerbates this problem."Hard crimping" or overseating of bullets, particularly in the .40 S&W, can cause dramatic increases in pressure almost to the same degree as a propellant overcharge. Either alone or in combination with a weakened case, these factors can resul t in a kB!Some people have also postulated a relationship between the use of cast lead bullets and kB!, arguing that buildup of lead in the chamber can lead to pressure buildups as well. The jury seems to be out on this one as a direct causation, but lead build -up _will_ sometimes cause a round to not fully chamber, and as Glocks can discharge with the action not completely locked up ("out of battery"), this can lead to a catastrophic failure.7. What can I do to prevent a kB!?* Shoot only new factory ammunition out of your Glock. This is what Glock, Inc. recommends, as do several members of Glock-L. Shooting reloads voids your factory warranty.* Install a barrel with a fully supported chamber. Custom barrel makers include Jarvis Precision and...Bar-Sto (barsto@eee.org)Wilson (wilsoncb@yournet.com)Briley For related data, see annotation #3 at the end of this FAQ.* Avoid wherever possible .40 S&W ammunition manufactured by Federal Cartridge Company prior to November 1995.At an October 1996 G.S.S.F. match, one competitor with a Model 22 had simply switched to a .40 S&W Sigma barrel which he averred not only better allowed him to shoot lead because of the conventional rifling, but that the fully supported Sigma chamber s ignificantly decreased the opportunities for a kB!NOTE: THIS PROCEDURE IS NEITHER RECOMMENDED OR AUTHORIZED.8. If I insist on reloading for my .40-something Glock, what can I do to minimize the chances of a kB!?* Install a custom barrel. See 7B.* Keep careful track of your brass. Load "Major Power Factor" loads only in new brass. Don't use range pickups. Don't shoot "hot loads" from used brass. Discard used brass sooner than you would normally.* Use calipers or case gauges to keep your reloads within spec. Check for excessive bulging in the case web and make sure your bullets are seated to the correct length. Also check for excessive case thinning or bulging.* The propellant AA#5 has been identified in a disproportionate number of kB!s, not only in Glocks but USP40s with barrels which do provide full case support. A number of Glock-L members have reported kB!s involving this propellant. It is not clear whether these kB!s are the fault of the propellant or the reloader, but it is clear that they are occurring in disproportionate numbers.Dean Speir and Frank James have reported that there are at least four discrete propagations of AA#5 in the U.S.A., variously manufactured under the same label by IMI, Olin, Beta Chemical (Norinco) in China and Lovex in Czechoslovakia.-*Another poster has identified VihtaVuori N350 as a potential problem. As a rule, you should always track the lot numbers of your propellants, and when using a new lot (or to be even safer, a new canister), you should back off the power of your loads and slowly increase them until you have verified the safety of the new lot.* Don't use cast lead bullets at all, or at least be very careful about lead buildup if you do.* Religiously follow all the other safety precautions associated with normal reloading procedures. Take special care not to load a double charge.ENDNOTES:Annotation #1*- Accurate Arms' current reloading guide contains the following statement regarding .40 S&W pistols and supported/unsupported cases:"In recent years it has become very apparent that there exists a situation regarding some pistols chambered for the .40 S&W cartridge. Some of the pistols currently available to shooters may not provide complete support to the case when a cartridge is chambered.""This information [AA's load data] is safe for use in firearms which provide complete support of the case. Failure to fully support the case with cartridges of such intensity may result in bulged cases, ruptured cases, separated case heads or other consequences which may result in damage to the firearm and/or injury or death to the shooter and/or bystanders.""If you own a firearm chambered for the .40 S&W, we recommend you contact the manufacturer to determine if the case is fully supported.""If your firearm does not provide complete support for the case, DO NOT USE Accurate Arms Company data or products to reload your .40 S&W ammunition.""This is the first time Accurate Arms Company has felt it necessary to place such a restriction on the use of our products, but the continued safety and welfare of the shooting public compels us to do so."Annotation #2In late 1995, Federal Cartridge of Anoka, Minnesota quietly undertook a redesign of their .40 S&W cartridge case to strengthen internally the area of the case web. While no one at Federal will address this for the record, it has been suggested that thi s move was dictated by the popularilty of the .40 S&W Glocks, and the munitions giant's attempt to hedge against a kB! with any of their ammunition.Federal .40 S&W rounds which may contain suspect casings may be identified as follows: Lot number consists of 10 characters (mostly numbers). In the 7th position, there may be a number or a letter. If there is a number in that position, the ammo was manufactured with the old style (possibly defective) brass. If it contains the letter Y (1995) or R (1996), the ammo has the new designed casing and should be okay. If the letter H appears, then check the next three [3] digits (the last three in the lot number). Ammo lot numbers H244 or below have the old style casings. Lots H245 and above have the new style casings.This information was provided by Federal Cartridge Company in September 1996.Annotation #3In September 1997, an inquisite and adventurous West Coast firearms hobbyist, Peter Jordan, undertook an informal test to see just how relatively "loose" were the Glock .40 S&W barrel chambers. "As far as I know, there are no reported cases of kB!'s with third party barrels such as the high quality Jarvis and Bar-Sto barrels. I believe the reason for this excellent third party barrel record is very simple: "A Jarvis barrel has 'more' six o'clock web support and a slightly tighter chamber that is more in line with other companies like Sig-Sauer. In fact, if you shoot 40 S&W rounds with a Sig 229 and a Glock with a Jarvis barrel, the brass is virtually identical... "...from my own experience, a set of calipers shows that a 'standard' Glock 40 S&W barrel expands the brass twice as much as a Sig pistol or a Glock/Jarvis combo: brass diameter ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 0.422" Brand new brass 0.427" Once fired brass in a Jarvis barrel (plus 5/1000 from the original brass size) 0.428" Once fired brass in a Sig 229 (plus 6/1000) 0.432"-0.434" Once fired brass in a standard Glock 40 S&W barrel (plus 10/1000 to 12/1000)[This message has been edited by Gene B. (edited 10-22-2001).]

kalifornian

I have an HK USP and absoulutely love it. I rented every 45 I could find before choosing it and it won hands down for the following reasons:

Ambidext Magazine release
Decocking lever
Non-trigger based safety
Very high quality workmanship
comfortable for me to hold and shoot

It has never ever jammed, it loads anything, handles really hot loads, has good recoil management, breaks down very easily for cleaning and has tons of optional accessories.

I can shoot a much tighter group with the HK than the Glock, I feel it has less of a sharp snap in the recoil, and it just feels right in my hand.

So many guns, so little money . . .