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1911 Colt 45

YosemitesamYosemitesam Member Posts: 89 ✭✭
edited July 2002 in Ask the Experts
This question is for Neil. Sometime back you advised me my X marking on my 45 was stamped as being an extra replacement frame for a damaged one. Since then I have different info. Can you advise me of your source for that piece of info? I reeally would like to find out absolutly what the X stands for. Thanks
Yo-Sam
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    nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,881 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry Sam, I was speaking from memory. If you have a reliable source that indicates some other usage, go with that. I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over this, though; "X" marked pistols are always mixed parts, and that pretty much puts them at the bottom end of collectibility.

    Neal
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    captkirk3@dslextreme.comcaptkirk3@dslextreme.com Member Posts: 3,804
    edited November -1
    HOLD IT RIGHT THERE, VARMIT...! The 'X' according to WILSONS Book on Colt, says on Page 383 at the Bottom of the page that its a Remarked serial number issued by government arsenals. (most in c.1950-60 period) are from the ranges X2693614 to X2695212; also (c. 1924-53), X1000 to X4385....Hope this sheds some light on the question at hand....best...

    Captain Kirk, Tech Staff
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    YosemitesamYosemitesam Member Posts: 89 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    O.K Capt. Kirk now we are getting someplace with the X mark. Mine is 18XX so according to your quoted book it would be from the 24 to 50 years. My other source said that most X marks were Springfield reworks so now I have to get it from Safe deposit and see what other marks are on it And Neal thanks as in essence it is kind of an Xtra as my other info source showed it was a mark for a stolen gun returned to the arsenals for reworking. I don't know why they would restamp it but thats the Govt. for you. Anyhow this will narrow it down some for me. Now if I can find a way to backtrack those restamped numbers I may be able to come up with the original numbers that were on it. One person told me to have it X-Rayed like they do with rare ones and that might show the original numbers. I was trying to find out if the Springfield arsenal would have a record of it in their files but not sure how to go about contacting them. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. I now realize it would be on the lower end of the money scale but this gun has a good story behind it now as it has been stolen twice. Once from the Govt. and once from me. So if nothing else it gives me a good yarn to spin and has been most interesting getting facts from all of you. Thanks again to you Neal and you too Capt.
    Yo-Sam
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    punchiepunchie Member Posts: 2,792 ✭
    edited November -1
    Yo Sam
    Try magna-fluxing for those re-stamped numbers. Most machine or welding shops should be able to do this for you at a more reasonable cost than the x-ray. This is usually used to find cracks/gaps etc but might work to bring out the latent numbers.

    AN ARMED SOCIETY IS A POLITE SOCIETY
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    YosemitesamYosemitesam Member Posts: 89 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Punchie:
    Thanks but I don't think magna flux would do it as the reciever would have been shaved or filed or whatever they do to these to renumber them. Some metals are welded over [not sure on guns]and that pretty much does in the original #. If memory serves me right Magna flux shows cracks in the metal and as the new numbers are over the top of the others I am not sure if they would be discernible. I know that some P.Ds have a method that pulls up motor numbers on stolen Motorcycles but believe it is an acid type thing and I don't want to do that and it is done on aluminum cases. But I will try and talk to a machine shop and see if the Magna Flux might work. Thanks for the input.
    Yo-Sam
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    Der GebirgsjagerDer Gebirgsjager Member Posts: 1,673 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    If I didn't really like you guys I wouldn't do this....but here goes:
    Quantity
    X1000 to X4385 3386 Renumbered by Springfield Armoury
    1924 to 1955.
    X2693614 to X2693665 52 Renumbered by Raritan Arsenal
    X2693666 to X2693685 20 Renumbered by Rock Island Arsenal
    1949
    X2693686 to X2693785 100 Renumbered by Rock Island Arsenal
    1950
    X2693786 to X2693885 100 Renumbered by U.S. Army Ordnance
    Depot, Tokyo, Japan, 1950
    X2693886 1 Renumbered by unknown U.S. Army
    Facility in Rhode Island
    X2693887 to X2693893 7 Renumbered by Mt. Rainer Ordnace
    Depot, 1950
    X2693894 to X2693922 29 Renumbered by Ogden Arsenal, 1951
    X2693923 to X2693938 16 Renumbered by Ogden Arsenal, 1951
    X2693939 to X2693943 Numbers not used by Ogden Arsenal
    X2693944 to X2693953 10 Renumbered by Raritan Arsenal
    X2693954 to X2694039 86 Renumbered by U.S. Marine Corp.,
    1952
    X2694040 1 Renumbered by U.S. Marine Corp.,
    1952
    X2694042 to X2694048 7 Renumbered by Rock Island Arsenal,
    1952
    X2694049 to X2694148 100 Unknown Arsenal
    X2694149 to X2694158 10 Unknown Arsenal
    X2694159 to X2694358 200 Renumbered by Rock Island Arsenal,
    1952
    X2694359 to X2694378 20 Renumbered by Raritan Arsenal, 1952
    X2694379 1 Renumbered by U.S. Marine Corp.
    X2694380 to X2694392 13 Renumbered by Raritan Arsenal
    X2694393 to X2694395 3 Renumbered by Rock Island Arsenal
    X2694396 to X2694995 600 Renumbered by Augusta Arsenal
    X2694996 to X2694998 3 Renumbered by Recok Island Arsenal,
    1954
    X2694999 to X2695198 200 Renumbered by U.S. Army Ordnance
    Depot, Tokyo, Japan, 1955
    X2695199 to 2695201 3 Renumbered by Raritan Arsenal, 1955
    X2695202 to X2695210 9 Renumbered by Rock Island Arsenal,
    1955
    X2695211 to X2695212 2 Renumbered by Minneapolis Arsenal,
    1957
    Total X Numbers: 4985


    May I suggest that you print this info out, as I probably won't do this again!
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    YosemitesamYosemitesam Member Posts: 89 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well Derbirgsjager thank you very much and you answered part of my query with the first line. As it was a 4 digit # it would have been reworked at Springfield. I also now have the piece in hand and it does have an Eagle and S17 on it. I haven't removed the barrel yet and it has colt 45 auto on it ,and the slide does have an H on the rear of it above the firng pin. There does not seem to be any other markings on it but until I strip it cannpot be sure. It does appear to have differnet year parts on it according to all of your comments and another site I found. I do have a springfield barrel in my posession and it is possible in past years I removed it and installed another one in it as I used to have a few X'tra parts[bad pun intended] but memory dims in golden years. I am not so much interested in value as I am history of this piece. Is there any way to backtrack the numbers to see what led up to this being reworked that any one is aware of??? I do appreciate this list as it is very interesting to see where all these X numbers were done.
    Thanks
    Yo-Sam
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    YosemitesamYosemitesam Member Posts: 89 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well Derbirgsjager thank you very much and you answered part of my query with the first line. As it was a 4 digit # it would have been reworked at Springfield. I also now have the piece in hand and it does have an Eagle and S17 on it. I haven't removed the barrel yet but it has colt 45 auto on it ,and the slide does have an H on the rear of it above the firng pin. There does not seem to be any other markings on it but until I strip it cannot be sure. It does appear to have different year parts on it according to all of your comments and another site I found. I do have a springfield barrel in my posession and it is possible in past years I removed it and installed another one in it as I used to have a few X'tra parts[bad pun intended] but memory dims in golden years. I am not so much interested in value as I am history of this piece. Is there any way to backtrack the numbers to see what led up to this being reworked that any one is aware of??? I do appreciate this list as it is very interesting to see where all these X numbers were done.
    Thanks
    Yo-Sam
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    nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,881 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A bright metal barrel with "COLT .45 AUTO" on the top is a Colt commercial barrel that was used by DOD arsenals in rebuilding/repairing M1911/M1911A1 pistols in the early '60s. You may find rebuild initials stamped on the left side of the frame above the trigger; e.g., SA, AA, RIA, etc.

    There may be other clues in the parts on your pistol. However, there is virtually no history of individual firearms available.

    Neal
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    v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If the remarking is directly over the original marking that has been filed down you wont be able to recover the original marking. However if it isn't then the location can be polished and acid etched to bring out the numbers. Magnaflux or Zyglo only work on cracks.
    My guess is that bookkeepingwise it was easier to write off the guns original s/ns and treat the reman. guns as new issue all in the same number series.
    Under conditions of ordnance, depot or arsenal rebuild it would be unreasonable to expect to find any of the original parts assembled to the rebuilt and refinished gun. Given the corrosive 45 ammo in use until at least the 50s, a good original barrel means to me the pistol was stolen from the Govt early in the game.
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    YosemitesamYosemitesam Member Posts: 89 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Neal:
    I think I changed this barrel some years back and that is where I ended up with the Springfield barrel I have for a spare that I asked about here a while back. It has been so long ago I cannot remember for certain. I think I changed to the other as it had Colt stamped on it and I thought it looked better. I did find a website that shows barrel markings and the position of the S and P shows the xtra barrel I have to be Springfield which would be consistent with the piece. There are no arsenal markings on the frame other than an eagle with the S17 stamp that I can see but I will double check.And to V35 thanks for your input and I didn't think Magna-Flux would work as that has to have a crack to settle in and the numbers do not go all the way through metal. Under a magnifying glass it looks like they only replaced the first series of numbers and not the last 2 digits. I wasn't sure of the exact process for acid testing but certainly do not want to buff off the finish. As Neal said it is a rework and not worth as much as a new one so econmics forbid the cost of X-Ray. Also it would serve no purpose to have the original numbers if there is no way to track them. My interest was mainly in the history of the gun tho and not its monetary worth. I would think that there would be some kind of record somewhere in our illustrious Govt. files showing when the rework was done and where it was sent to etc etc. as our gov. is paper happy but finding it may take an act of Congress[literally]. So guess I will have to be happy with what info you all have given me and thank you all very much.
    Yosemitesam
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