Winchester 1897 serial number

efhutton

I have a Winchester 1897 with letters before the number in the s/n, LL4XXX. What does this mean the LL?

Bert H.

Hello efhutton...

The "LL" is actually "11". The roll die in use at that time was in poor shape. The exact same die was also used on the Model 1894s of the era. Based on the serial number 114xxx, you Model 1897 was manufactured circa 1900.

Bert H.

Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!

only winchesters

efhutton: Bert has a good point, the roll dies when ever there was a 1 starting off in the serial number where light at times. Since you have two 11 in a row, it could also mean the gun was reblued. I've seen gunsmiths who don't use soap stone, (used to fill serial numbers and imprinted barrel markings prior to polishing) get a little crazy using the polishing wheel prior to reblueing. Regards Dave

captkirk3@dslextreme.com

Serial Number 114xxx was produced in <1901>.....
Production started at 89555 and ended at 133296 for that years production run...............

Captain Kirk, Tech Staff

Bert H.

quote:Originally posted by only winchesters
efhutton: Bert has a good point, the roll dies when ever there was a 1 starting off in the serial number where light at times. Since you have two 11 in a row, it could also mean the gun was reblued. I've seen gunsmiths who don't use soap stone, (used to fill serial numbers and imprinted barrel markings prior to polishing) get a little crazy using the polishing wheel prior to reblueing. Regards Dave


Hello Dave...

I have been asked this exact same question at least a dozen times in the past several years, and I have personally looked at several Model 1894s and 1897s that were stamped with the same die. The "11" was stamped quite deeply in all examples I have seen, but appears to have the leftmost section of the die broken off.

Bert H.

Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!

only winchesters

Bert: you have to remember the serial number roll die was only used once. (It changed with every gun) Also efhutton didn't say if it was on the receiver or receiver extension that this occurred on. Winchester would use a roll die on the receivers, then they would be blued and go to the warehouse/stores. When it came down for assyembly they would fit the barrel with the extension on it to the receiver, once the assembly was complete, they would proof test it, then come back and hand stamp the proof mark, (circle pw, for other reading this) and the serial number of the receiver onto the recevier extension. So by looking at the proof and the s/n on the extension on a Md 97 or Md12, or Md42 is one way you can tell if it's been reblued, since the stamping occurred after blue, it left traces of "white" metal around the s/n's and proof mark. There are other ways of course too, such as looking at the barrel chamber rings, they should be in the white, and on Md 42s the safety button was always in the white. The receiver extentions were to thin to use a roll die on. Bert your the expert on rifles, I can only speak about shotguns, (most of the time) LOL So the idea that a s/n roll die was worn out, it don't by that since it was only used once. However I know the "Quality" of the roll dies were questionable, meaning Winchester didn't look at them as close as we would have liked. You can see on barrel markings where a letter has a portion missing, or is real faint when the others are deep and crisp looking. I hope this clears some things up. Regards Dave

Bert H.

Hello Dave...

Not true about only using the serial number die just once... it simply would not have been cost effective or practical to make individual dies for every single serial number used... WAY too time consuming and costly. Winchester used some form of jig that held individual digits, and allowed for quickly changing the digits as required to increnment the serial numbers. As I mentioned earlier, I have personally seen several Model 1894s (and a few 1897s) with the "LL" appearing serial number stamp. If you take an early Model 1894 and an early Model 1897 and put them side by side, you will see that the serial numbers stamped on the receivers are identical (I believe the same holds true for the Model 1892). Additionally, the superposed "WP" in oval stamp was applied before final finishing (bluing). In this case, efhutton's Model 1897 may or may not have the "WP" proof stamp. None of the early made (pre-1899/1900) Winchesters have the "WP" proof stamp, and it did not become standard until 1904/1905 (Herbert Houze specifically mentions it in his book "WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS COMPANY Its History & Development from 1865 to 1981".

Best regards,

Bert H.

Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!

only winchesters

There were several manufacturing processes used by Winchester over the years. Bert I don't disagree with what you have said. Also I'm only speaking of their processes used from about WW I and beyond. After all none of us were actually there, we only know what we've read and were fortunate enough to learn from others over the years. Bert you referred to the "roll die" in your first statement, now you are saying that some type of jig was used. I've seen the roll dies that Winchester used to imprint the barrel markings on Md 12's they do not have interchangeable letters or numbers. So that leads me to believe that some sort of stamping machine for serial numbers must have been used, maybe several different types, one for rifles and one for shotguns, because of the receiver sizes. When stamping a flat " 1 " on a curved surface the little _ at the bottom of the one will always be deepest in the center, ie the portion of the one in the upright position. As far as when they stamped the proof mark, we may have to argree to disagree on this Bert. I know the receivers were stamped before blueing, along with the serial number on the receiver. But the barrel assembly came from the ware house with the receiver extention and the chamber ring allready on it. (maybe not the first few years of the Md 97 production but eventually they did) Once a 97 or 12 finished assembly they would proof test it, then and only then did they proof mark the barrel, and stamp the serial number onto the receiver extension. I have too many original guns to convince me or a few others that have written about shotguns, otherwise. I have new barrels that have never been put on a gun with no proof marks, some are blank, some have "NP" for not proofed. That's what's great about this forum, we get different ideas and opinions, not that anybody is right or wrong, because Winchester was always looking for ways to cut costs. So what might have been used in 1900, could have changed by 1920. Regards Dave

Bert H.

Hello Dave...

When I initially referred to the serial number die as a "roll die" I did so for simplicity purposes. In actuality, a jig was used to hold the individual digits, and then it was "rolled" onto the receiver. I completely agree that the Winchester address and other barrel (choke, gauge, caliber, etc.) stamps were one-piece roll dies. as for the proof stamps, I own a considerable number of Winchester rifles (mostly 1885s), and I can positively tell you that the "WP" was stamped before the frame and barrels were blued. The same is true of my 1955 vintage Model 97 (that is the only one I have access to at the moment). Winchester (according to what I have learned) always proof tested their firearms before final finishing... to do otherwise would make no sense from a cost perspective. The Winchester factory barrels that were sold separately (after circa 1903) should have a "P" in an oval on the top of the barrel, and will often have an "O.F." (Outside Fitted) on the bottom of the barrel.

I completely agree with your statement - "That's what's great about this forum, we get different ideas and opinions, not that anybody is right or wrong, because Winchester was always looking for ways to cut costs.". I really appreciate hearing (reading) your learned, and polite responses (I just wish that all "different" points of view on this forum were this nicely debated[:)][^])

Bert H.

Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!

only winchesters

Thank-you Bert. Again I'm only talking about shotguns, and don't claim to be an "expert" on anything really. LOL Actually Winchester from a manufacturing point a view was decades ahead of many other companies which utilized machined parts. For you younger people they didn't have CNC machines, these were all old manual mills and lathes. Winchester was one of the first to use "Statistical Process control", it wasn't called that. I read, but can't recall where, that Winchester did a study on barrel proofs, and by 1910 or so they had a very low rejection rate, at the time of proofing, something like 1 in 10,000. Most the rejections on shotgun barrels were length, stamping imperfections, and choke diameters, with the later being not so critical since it could always be reworked into the next larger choke. Full became, Modified, later Improved modified, Modified became Cylinder or later Imp/Cyl. Bert we agree the barrel had to be fitted to the gun before proof. In 1912 and 1913, Md 12s were assembled in the "white" so I'm guessing that they were folowing the 97 process. But it became apparent with the assembly process and dissassembly for blueing, then reassembly, all the handeling, the stocks and metal were suffering from handling damage, and too much time was being spent fixing the dings and scratches or worse. When the 12 and 16 guage were introduced by 1914, they started to implement changes in the assembly process. Once the receiver was through all machining processes and passed inspection, it was serialized. Today that is law, however I'm not sure when that happened. Remember they were using 3 different blueing processes at the time, barrels were rust blued, receivers used a hot blue method, (dilute, if I recall correctly) and some of the smaller parts a 2nd hot blue method. So with the fact that they were having extremely low rejection rates, Winchester gambled and was basically succesful when they started the assembly procedure after the componets were blued. Thus the receiver extionsion was serialized and proof marks applied after the parts were blued, assembled, and proofed. bert I have some pictures I'll email you. Anyway that's what I've been able to find out. Sorry efhutton, probably more than you wanted to know. Regards Dave