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Need advice on inherited possibly illegal shotgun

chickenhawk8chickenhawk8 Member Posts: 228 ✭✭✭
edited May 2007 in Ask the Experts
Ok I posted this on the general questions and was advised to come to the experts...so I am asking for some advice, legal options, or basically to see if I am screwed. My granddad died about a year ago and left me his old winchester model 21 shotgun. Now he told me that he had bought it years ago from a guy who was trying to return it to Sears & Roebuck (my grandfather worked there and this was back in the late 40's or early 50's). The guy couldn't return it but my granddad offered cash for the gun. The big problem is that the serial #'s are completely filed away. I took the gun apart to see if any other #'s were visible and the other places were filed away as well. Is there anyway to recover, track, or legal options to be able to use this gun? Of course my grandmaw looked through all old records and there of course is no sales receipt. Am I screwed w/ an illegal gun to just keep for ever in my gun safe? I am not ever looking to sell it because of sentimental value but I would love to be able to bird hunt w/ it. Would love some input.
Thanks
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Comments

  • codenamepaulcodenamepaul Member Posts: 2,931 ✭
    edited November -1
    Can you actually see where they've been filed. It may have never had a S/N. If it has been filed, just that fact makes it illegal and it needs to be disposed of. If it hasn't been nad just doesn't have one you may be just fine. YMMV
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  • chickenhawk8chickenhawk8 Member Posts: 228 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yes you can clearly see that something was filed away...no mistaking it at all. the barrel is completely filed and the other spot has what appears to have been a #. I guess there is no way to track it huh.
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  • geeguygeeguy Member Posts: 1,047 ✭
    edited November -1
    I had the same thing happen several years ago. It is not legal to own a firearm with the serial numbers filed off. I inherited a 1911 lower with no number, and I contacted the ATF local and they sent an agent out to determine "where" this came from and why no numbers. In the end they would allow me to add my own serial number, but it could never be sold. I opted to destroy the lower and keep the parts since I could easily and cheaply procure a serial numbered lower.

    ATF was great in guidence and I would recommend calling them (don't give them your name and make the call from a pay phone if you're concerned about asking a question). The agents in my area have always been helpful, as most of them are shooters themselves and they "want" everything to be legal.

    Just my experience, many may have a better idea.
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  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    How deep into the steel was it filed? If it was filed away just deep enough to deface the numerals, it may still be possible to recover them by using the Forensic Acid Etching technique or the Magnetic Imaging Technique for Nondestructive Restoration of Serial Numbers.

    Here is a link showing the results of the Forensic Acid Etching technique - http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/criminal_investigation/crimelab/toolmarks.htm#serial

    WACA Historian & Life Member

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  • only winchestersonly winchesters Member Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello chickenhawk: I believe the Winchester Md 21 also has the S/N on the forearm metal too. Remove it and look. Also sometimes on the butt stock, remove it from the frame and look. I again I think it's on the bottom cut out for the tang.

    Also coin dealers use a "light" acid wash to bring dates back up on coins. I've heard this may work on some guns as well. Look for a coin shop in your town and ask them about the solution.

    Regards Dave
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  • Tailgunner1954Tailgunner1954 Member Posts: 7,734 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Worst case sceneraio is that you completly strip the gun, distroy the receiver and sell off all of the other pieces on one of the auction sites (like Gunbroker).
    All the BATFE cares about is the receiver SN, as far as legality goes.
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  • FatstratFatstrat Member Posts: 9,147
    edited November -1
    Or you might replace the filed parts and keep the gun. That's what I would do.
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  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Fatstrat
    Or you might replace the filed parts and keep the gun. That's what I would do.



    That is not possible on a Winchester Model 21... the serial number is stamped on the frame, the bottom of the barrel lug, and on the steel insert of the forend piece. To replace the parts, you would essentially need an entire second gun.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

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  • 47studebaker47studebaker Member Posts: 2,251 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Take some fine sandpaper or a dremmel with a buffing wheel and go over the place you think might be a serial number. You can sometimes read the number that way. You may have to look at it with a magnifying glass or at an angle with a flashlight. Or once it's nice and shiney take a small amount of acid from your car battery and place over that area. Again use a magnifying glass and/or a flashlight. (at lease thats how I was able to recover some vehicles with defaced VIN.)
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  • ammunition098765ammunition098765 Member Posts: 13 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    was the gun made be for 1968

    if it was made be for e 1968 it probacbly did not have a serial number on it
    and if you sell it you just tell em i enherited the gun never saw it be for in my life my grand pap died and it was given to me
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  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ammunition098765
    was the gun made be for 1968

    if it was made be for e 1968 it probacbly did not have a serial number on it
    and if you sell it you just tell em i enherited the gun never saw it be for in my life my grand pap died and it was given to me



    ALL Winchester Model 21 double barrel shotguns were serialized! It would help if you so called "experts" actually knew what you were talking about instead of giving out bum information or advice[V].

    WACA Historian & Life Member

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  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by chickenhawk8
    Now he told me that he had bought it years ago from a guy who was trying to return it to Sears & Roebuck (my grandfather worked there and this was back in the late 40's or early 50's). The guy couldn't return it but my granddad offered cash for the gun. The big problem is that the serial #'s are completely filed away.

    This is not legal advice. You should only get legal advice from an attorney.

    A couple of things:

    Prior to 1968, there was no requirement that firearms have serial numbers. Additionally, I believe the laws relating to prohibitions on serial number removal (on anything) date to the 1970s.

    If the shotgun did contain serial numbers when it was manufactured, and if those numbers were removed when it was NOT a violation of the law, I do not think that it would necessarily follow that that firearm is now illegal.

    The best thing to protect yourself -- and assure that you will be able to keep the shotgun if an occasion arose where its legality was questioned -- might be to have your grandmother sign a properly witnessed statement describing that to the best of her recollection, the shotgun was acquired without serial numbers in 195x and that it remained in your grandfather's possession, without modification, until it was given to you after his death.
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  • only winchestersonly winchesters Member Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello everyone: The stocks on a Md 21 were all hand fitted prior to finish. They are identified by serial number. Like I said the serial number may be on or under neath the forearm iron, and definately on the butt stock.

    Look there.

    Regards Dave
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  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by ammunition098765
    was the gun made be for 1968

    if it was made be for e 1968 it probacbly did not have a serial number on it
    and if you sell it you just tell em i enherited the gun never saw it be for in my life my grand pap died and it was given to me



    ALL Winchester Model 21 double barrel shotguns were serialized! It would help if you so called "experts" actually knew what you were talking about instead of giving out bum information or advice[V].


    Is it marked as a "Winchester"? Sears sold a lot of stuff under their own "store brand" names; people sometimes refer to them by the original manufacturer (if they know it) rather than by the name Sears used.
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  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by only winchesters
    Hello everyone: The stocks on a Md 21 were all hand fitted prior to finish. They are identified by serial number. Like I said the serial number may be on or under neath the forearm iron, and definately on the butt stock.

    Look there.

    Regards Dave


    Good advice Dave[^]

    WACA Historian & Life Member

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