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Value of a Winchester Model Twelve.
HPH
Member Posts: 112 ✭✭
I bought a 1938 Winchester Black Diamond Model Twelve with a Monte Carlo stock in excellent condition, and when I went to test fire it, I could only get two shells in the magazine. When I got home, I discovered it had an original wooden plug, complete with the Winchester tape still on it inserted into the magazine.
On page 67 of George Madis's book, "The Winchester Model Twelve", he wrote the following:
"President Franklin Delano Roosevelt signed a bill February 2, 1935 prohibiting a capacity of more than three shots in any shotgun used in hunting migratory waterfowl. This same month, Winchester began packing a wooden plug with each Model Twelve. Heavy Duck guns left the factory with the plug installed in the magazine."
pics of the gun and plug are here:http://users.connections.net/houser/blackdiamond.htm
Does this increase the value of my gun? And if so, by how much? I can't imagine there are very many of these original plugs left. What would the plug by itself be worth?
Happiness is a warm gun.
On page 67 of George Madis's book, "The Winchester Model Twelve", he wrote the following:
"President Franklin Delano Roosevelt signed a bill February 2, 1935 prohibiting a capacity of more than three shots in any shotgun used in hunting migratory waterfowl. This same month, Winchester began packing a wooden plug with each Model Twelve. Heavy Duck guns left the factory with the plug installed in the magazine."
pics of the gun and plug are here:http://users.connections.net/houser/blackdiamond.htm
Does this increase the value of my gun? And if so, by how much? I can't imagine there are very many of these original plugs left. What would the plug by itself be worth?
Happiness is a warm gun.
Comments
"When I cease learning...I'm dead"(Me)
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I WOULD RATHER BE DUCK HUNTING.
My dad had a solid rib Model 12 that was made in 1917. My brother's got it now, and still uses it from time to time. I've been looking for a good deal for a long time on one of these, and I finally got lucky! I'm pretty sure this isn't a fake Black Diamond. I think some little old lady or some kid inherited it, didn't want it, and traded it in at Scheel's. The "experts" there probably gave them a couple hundred for it, marked it up a few hundred more, and thought they made a killing when they sold it to me.
I'm thinking that there are maybe only a handfull of these plugs still left in the world. I know if I had to have one in my gun, and then the law was repealed, I'd be ripping it out and unceremoniously tossing it into the fireplace first chance I got.
If George gets back to me, I'll post his reply here. As to the adoption, I don't think the Mrs. will go for it. [;)] The last of our boys moved out a couple years ago, and we're in no hurry to bring another in. [8D]
YOU DID NOT SAY WHOS RIB IS ON THE GUN. ARE THE RIB STUDS OVAL OR ROUND?? IT HARD TO TELL LOOKING WITH YOUR PICS, HAS YOU GUN BEEN REBLUED?/
I WOULD RATHER BE DUCK HUNTING.
It's a Winchester milled two pin rib with the oval posts. The bluing I believe is original.
George Madis died this past December... I don't believe he is going to be able to answer any questions for you.
I have not looked at the pictures of your Model 12 yet, but will give you an educated appraisal after doing so. Having the original plug means absolutely nothing... most of the 1.5 million Model 12s made after 1934 have their original plugs still in them.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!
WACA Historian & Life Member
Really sounds like you got a hell of a deal from the mall sporting goods store there HPH! As a quick and dirty estimate goes your gun with "30 barel and milled VR should be going for about $1500 to $1700. The serial number you gave put it in the first year of manufacture so that should add a slight premium. The wooden plug Winchester marked? I would assume that this would add a little to the value but as original equipment and not a factory option it would not be a great deal! As a side note there have been a number of Black Diamonds faked over the years. The value difference between a regular Trap Md 12 and a Black Diamond Md 12 Trap is about $700 so as you can see it would be well worth it for an unscrupulous seller to go to the trouble of faking it! I'm not saying this is the case but you should be cognizant of this possibility. Since the value of your piece is high I would attempt to get a factory letter (perhaps one of the REAL afficianadoes on the Forum could tell you how to go about that!) verifying the original production stats so you can at least insure it correctly! I hope there is a real Winchester guru out there that can help you out more than I and hope I have at least given you some food for thought! Oh, by the way, the adoption offer still stands! Likely the only way I'll ever get to shoot such a fine shotgun! Nice catch!!
1KYDSTR... I don't know where you are getting you information from, but a Model 12 with a serial number in the 780,xxx range is a LONG way from being a first year gun! Factory letters are not available for any of the Model 12s (go to the following website for Winchester serial numbers that can be researched) - http://www.bbhc.org/firearms/popup_WinchesterRecords.cfm
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!
WACA Historian & Life Member
I've written a note to George Madis on his website asking him about my gun and the plug. If anyone can verify the authenticity of my gun, he should be able to. [;)]
I'm thinking that there are maybe only a handfull of these plugs still left in the world. I know if I had to have one in my gun, and then the law was repealed, I'd be ripping it out and unceremoniously tossing it into the fireplace first chance I got.
If George gets back to me, I'll post his reply here. As to the adoption, I don't think the Mrs. will go for it. [;)] The last of our boys moved out a couple years ago, and we're in no hurry to bring another in. [8D]
I personally own three Model 12s that have their original plugs in them. The other two Model 12s I own were made were made in 1916 and 1924... before plugs were even conceived, so they do not have a factory plug.
The pictures you provided do not provide enough detail to authenticate your gun (the full length photos were too dark, and taken from too far away. The close-up pictures show some blurring to the factory stamps... indicating that it has been polished and reblued (unless your camera is causing the lettering in the photos to be slightly blurred). To be perfectly honest, without having the gun in my own hands to inspect it, there is no positive way to determine the originality of it.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!
WACA Historian & Life Member
Later today I'll post some clearer pics of the gun.
"Monte Carlo" black Diamonds are rather rare [made mostly in mid to late 30s] and the wood alone on your gun would go for $550-700; and even if the gun is refinished it should go for 950-1150. If original the 1500-1700 sounds right. The plug came in just about all repeating winchesters after the migratory bird act was past. If you look around you can find them for 3/5 dollars at gun shows. But there is a guy [Big Frank] selling them for 20 + shipping on a different auction site. Sounds like you got a nice Trap gun for a good price......
And yes...George Madis passed away a few months back. I still have an question reply E-Mail saved from him a few days before he passed away. He was a winchester/model 12 nut right up till the end.
"Each and every day of my life forces me to add to the list of people who can kiss my xxx...."