Marlin - Ballard ----pictures added

peabo

I need some help identifying a rifle that is marked on the left side of the action to be a J.M. Marlin New Haven Conn. USA Ballard's patent Nov 5, 1861.
From what I can determine, from Flaydermans guide and Frank de Hass' single shot rifles and actions, it is a No. 2 sporting rifle. The front sight appears to be a globe site and the rear sight on the barrel has been removed (there is a dove-tail in the barrel) and a vernier tang sight installed. With out measuring, just guessing, the barrel is approx. 28 inches and is fully octagonal. The stock is not checkered and I don't remember exactly, but I think it has a rifle shaped butt plate. (not a shotgun plate but maybe).
The caliber, again without measuring, to me looks to be about a 32 caliber.
The reason this description is so vague is because I do not have the rifle, but hope to be able to purchase it in the near future. That is also why I have no pictures to post.
With the serial number, I may be able to determine the model more closely, but I did not find the serial number on the rifle or a caliber designation.

Can one of you experts tell me where the serial number and the caliber is marked on these rifles?

I looked everywhere I thought it might be and didn't see anything.

The rifle is in good mechanical condition but the finish is patina and there are no signs of case hardening of the frame. No rust or pitting, just patina.

Bert???








I ALSO FOUND THE SERIAL NUMBER, JUST WHERE IT SHOULD BE !!!!
S/N 3132 I don't know how I missed in the first time I looked because it stands out like a sore thumb !!!
It also has the "Patented Feb 9 1875" on the left side (along with the other info) and it is .32 caliber(not marked but by measurements)

Thanks---Peabo

blackpowdermax

peabo....sounds like you do have a #2 in 32 Long. Most would also have a 3rd line on the left of the receiver with a 1875 Patent date for the reversible firing pin. You can shoot both rimfire and centerfire 32 Long. Ammo is kind of hard to find (rimfire) and pricy, but you can reload 32 Long Colt with a heeled bullet and use that.

Serial # on the receiver is on the bottom next to the forearm. But the barrel, forearm, buttstock, both sides of the breechblock, underside of the barrel and buttplate also have the serial number. They should all match if completely original. Caliber marking is on the top of the barrel next to the receiver. Some earlier Marlin-Ballards weren't caliber marked.

You won't be able to determine the model from the serial number as there are no factory records on the Ballards other than a few mixed in with their lever gun records. No dates either other than a guess.

#2's were made in 32 Long and Extra Long, 38 Long and Extra Long, 44 Long and Extra Long, 44 WCF (44-40) and probably a few others I can't remember.

Here is a #2 in 32 Long.........



Hope this helps.........

max

peabo

Thanks, Max, for your help.
I don't remember if it has the 1875 patent date or not, I was going from memory and know that it has the 1861 date but not sure about the 1875.
I looked in the obvious places for a s/n, (ie on the receiver bottom by the forearm) but didn't see one. Will the s/n on the breech block be visible with the action closed, or will the block have to be removed to see it?
I also looked at the top of the barrel just in front of the receiver for a caliber but didn't see one.
If it does have the 1875 patent date, I would have to remove the breech block to determine if the firing pin is set for rim fire or center fire, correct? While checking this, I could look for a s/n on the block. I hope it is rf/cf so I could shoot the centerfire ammo, which I may be able to reload rather than pay the price for rimfire ammo. If it is 38, which it may be, I have some 38 short colt and some 38 long colt brass that I may be able to reload for it. I would prefer to be able to shoot the rifle rather than have a neat wall-hanger.
Next time I look at the rifle, I will check for the s/n in the places you suggested.
Thanks for your input, Max.

The rifle has the tang sight as in your picture. That is a nice looking rifle. Is that one yours?


Thanks---Peabo

blackpowdermax

peabo....nice one and a early rifle to boot. Always liked the ring levers.

All of the other serial #'s require disassembly to view. I'm not sure if you have the reversible firing pin as I can't see the firing pin retaining screw in the breechblock, but if you do, you need to pull the breechblock to reverse the pin. It reverses top to bottom rather than end to end. Kind of like a two pronged fork with one short prong.

You may have gathered that I am a bit of a Marlin-Ballard nut, not quite as bad as Bert and his Hiwalls, but close. And that one in the picture is one of mine. Of course the Ballards shoot better than the Hiwalls, just not as strong. Oops, sorry Bert. [:D][}:)]

Just a guess, but I would say your rifle was probably made in 1876, at the latest 1877.

Need any more help, just holler....always happy to discuss Marlin-Ballards.

max

peabo

Thanks again Max, and yes I do have a couple more questions !!!

There is a screw in the right side of the block which is buggered a little from maybe using the wrong sized screwdriver. I am assuming that the firing pin has already been changed for centerfire but also the screw may have been coming loose and may have been tightened several times. The only way to tell is to remove and disassemble the block and visually check which way the firing pin is installed, correct? I should have taken a picture of the right side also. I am assuming this is the screw you are refering to as there is a screw going into the right side of the block.
I am also assuming that with the "1875" patent date that the firing pin is reversable?

I cannot find in my references any measurements for the 32 long cartridges -- would you say that using 32S&W dies and brass would be safe to reload cartridges to fire in the rifle? Should they be loaded with blackpowder or is there another powder and load that I could use? I am not asking you for loading data as you may be reluctant to furnish that info without a hands on inspection of the rifle, just a general question. As I said, I hate to have a firearm of any type that cannot be fired if you wanted to -- those are just wall-hangers and not a firearm. Although I may only fire it one time, I will know that it is an operating and usable firearm!

I inserted a 32S&W long brass and although if fit, the extractor would not catch the rim, maybe the extractor is worn or loose or the dimensions of the correct brass is a little different than that of the 32S&W brass. Although safe to fire, does not fit exactly as the original brass would?

I am getting the cart before the horse here because the rifle is not mine, and I am not sure that I will be able to afford the cost if I am given the opportunity to purchase it. I am just exploring the options before making an offer for the rifle. Even if I cannot purchase it, I enjoy learning things about any firearm! If I can't buy it, I can at least say that I have had one in my hands and know a little about it, thanks to your help.

I know that without a 'hands-on' inspection that you cannot give a true value of the rifle, but from the pictures, can you give me an idea of what I should offer for the rifle?

I know there are more questions I should be asking, but cannot think of any more right now.

Thanks again, Max!
Just give me a ball-park value of the rifle if I have given you enough information to do so.

By the way, although dirty and in need of a good cleaning, the bore appears that it will clean up to be bright and shiny !!!


Thanks---Peabo


Added info. and question:

These are some bullets I found in my hoarded away stores ! Although they were, I believe, for a 32-20, they may be suitable for this rifle.
They are 119 grain 311 diameter bullets. Picture shows one in a 32S&W long case, with an OAL of approximately 1.235. In your opinion would these bullets be suitable for this rifle??




Thanks---Peabo

Bert H.

quote:Originally posted by blackpowdermax
You may have gathered that I am a bit of a Marlin-Ballard nut, not quite as bad as Bert and his Hiwalls, but close. And that one in the picture is one of mine. Of course the Ballards shoot better than the Hiwalls, just not as strong. Oops, sorry Bert. [:D][}:)]

max




Max,

Good thing I wore boots into the office this morning... the stinky stuff is starting to pile up real deep[}:)]. Sorry my hind end[:0]

blackpowdermax

peabo.....the screw you are describing is indeed the firing pin retaining screw. Slot depth on those screws is pretty shallow, so easy to bugger up. Should be able to remove that, pull the pin out and put back in for type of ammo, long prong on the bottom for centerfire and long prong on top for rimfire. Best to have the breechblock out when doing this change, kind of tight otherwise.

You should not be able to put 32 S&W Long in that chamber, but it may be worn or oversize when made. Case diameter on the 32 Long or Long Colt around .318" and the 32 S&W Long around .334". 32 S&W uses a .312" diameter inside lubed bullet, 32 Long a heeled bullet (outside lubed)like a 22 RF and the large diameter is around .317-.318". So the .312" diameter will rattle down the bore a bit. Your 32-20 bullets probably won't work. You may be able to buy the heeled bullets from Buffalo Arms, I haven't checked. I load mine with old reloading tools from that period, so don't know about 32 S&W dies, etc.

All of the rimfire loads I used in mine were smokeless so you can go from there. It was originally a black powder gun, so I wouldn't "hot rod" it.

Value.....rough guess, from $600-$1000. The globe front sight and tang sight are a plus, ring lever is a plus, missing rear barrel sight a minus, but they can be found if you are patient. Early serial number is a plus, finish not spectacular so no help there. Good bore a plus as these were generally "pot fillers" and were heavily used and not alway cared for well. This caliber is probably the most common of the #2's so a minus there. Finding ammo generally a minus. All of this assumes that it is all original and the serial #'s in the various locations match. Mis-matched serial #'s or re-finish drops it down a bunch, especially in this model.

One final warning......collecting Ballards tends to destroy your bank account and you can't stop. Kind of like Hiwalls huh Bert? And yep, I do know about that "deep stuff". [:D][:D][:D]

max

peabo

Thanks, Max.
I guess you have answered all the questions I had.
I was aware the 32long used a heeled bullet but I had no references on the dimensions. Now I know !
Thanks again for your help.


Thanks---Peabo

Bert H.

quote:Originally posted by blackpowdermax
One final warning...... collecting Ballards tends to destroy your bank account and you can't stop. Kind of like Hiwalls huh Bert? And yep, I do know about that "deep stuff". [:D][:D][:D]

max


Now that is a true statement![:D][;)]

peabo

Thanks Bert and Max.
Your posts are one of the reasons that I enjoy these forums. If I have a question, there is always someone who can help. However, a person has to have some knowledge of the material before he can ask a question and the only way to get this knowledge is through reference material that someone has worked so hard to gather.
Bert, I know that the material that you have already have would be very useful to some of us, so get to work and publish that first book!!!![:D]


Thanks---Peabo