Bert H. -----

peabo

Thanks for joining me and Max on the Marlin - Ballard thread.
If you have any thoughts on reloading for that rifle, please post them on that thread.

Ever since I started reading these forums and saw that your interest was primarily in the 1885 Win., it reminded me of one that I bought at a garage sale here in this small town for $20. That was approx. 1990. I had never seen one before and honestly didn't know what it was, but thought that any old Winchester was worth $20, so I took it home.

After enjoying many hours of research, I determined that it was a thin side low wall in very good condition. The barrel was 26 inches and it was chambered in .22short. The wood was very good and the ebony forarm tip was perfect.

I told myself that I must get this rifle into the hands of a Winchester collector so it would forever be preserved.
Well, I took it to a gun show sometime later to see if I could get it appraised. From what I could determine by the blue book and ads in the shotgun news, I just guessed that it may be worth $800. No one at the gun show would tell me what it was worth but they all wanted to buy it and wanted me to put a price on it. I finally saw a big red tablecloth with a Winchester Arms Collector logo on it but the dealer was not at his table, he was roaming looking for bargains. I went back a little while later and he still wasn't at his table but he came up behind me and asked it the rifle was for sale. I said "yes", he said "how much" and when I said "$800" it didn't phase him a bit. He took the gun and opened his books and told me that it was a special order 26" #1 barrel made the first year of production. His special interest also was the 1885 single shot.(I don't know if he was correct or not, since I knew nothing about the 1885)
I have looked through all of my stuff and cannot find the serial number and didn't take any pictures of the rifle. I know I have info somewhere if I can just find it. That was about '89 or maybe '90 and I am getting old and forgetful, but I will find it one day..
Anyway, since it was a first year production rifle and in very good condition, I wanted to get this info to you. The man I sold it to was in the WACA and at the time lived in Belle Glade, Florida. His name is John H. (e-mail if you want last name). Maybe you already know him since he collected 1885's. I tried a search on the computer and cannot seem to locate him, apparently no longer in Florida. (Maybe past away since he was about the same age as me.)
If you do not recognize the name, thought if you could contact him he may be able to give you some of his info to help in your research.
I will continue my search for the serial number and when I find it I will get it to you if you are interested.

I love doing research on old guns that I find, even if I cannot own them. At least I can say that I know a little bit about them.


Thanks---Peabo

Bert H.

Hello Peabo,

You are quite welcome.

I know very little about loading the 32 S&W... Max is most likely your best source of information in that regard.

Yes, I am very much interested in any information you may still have about the old low-wall 1885 you once owned. I do not recognize the name "John H.", but that is not too surprising since he is/was located in Florida and I am in Washington State (as far apart in the lower 48 as you can possibly get).

He was correct in that the 26-inch barrel was special order (2" over standard) for a 22 Short (the barrel should have been marked "22 CAL R.F."). However, it could not have been a "first year" production Model 1885, as Winchester did not manufacture the first low-wall rifles until May of 1886. From September of 1885 - April of 1886 all of the 1885s were high-walls. The first low-walls appeared circa serial number 2250. The early "panel-sided" low-walls were only in production for 18-months before being replaced by the second variation "flat-sided" low-walls.

Like you, I really enjoy researching old guns (primarily Winchesters[:0][:D]).


Thank you for your interest![^]

peabo

See what I mean, I just learned more about the 1885 !!!
I never heard of the 'panel sided' low wall, could you elaborate on that for me, please. A picture would be very nice.
If I remember correctly, the barrel was clearly marked '22 short'.
Could this be because it was a special order barrel so they marked it as such ? I thought it had a big gouge in the bottom of the barrel but he told me that it was the number '1', meaning a #1 barrel. Could it have been rebarreled at a later date and was marked at that time as '22short'? With the #1 on it, I would assume it is a factory barrel. If I could find the s/n, maybe you could verify how it left the factory.
Maybe he meant that it was the first year that that particular variation was made. I don't remember exactly what he said. Wish I could find him and see if he still has that rifle, or remembers it and may have some information on the rifle that he has in his files.
Due to the computer age and all the forums accessable by everyone, thought that you may have had some contact with him on some forum that you both may be interested in.

I know it wasn't made in 1885 because those were made by Browning and Winchester didn't start making them until, I believe, 1886.
I'm think it was a 5 digit s/n. Sure wish I could find my 'LOST' information on it.!!!!
I don't know why I am telling you this as you certainly know more about them than I ever will. That is unless I get a copy of the book that you are working on. Do you have any idea when your first book will be published?

When I find John H. or the info that I know I have on the rifle, I'll be sure to get it to you.


Thanks---Peabo

Bert H.

The picture below shows all three types of the low-wall frame. The top frame is a late production Model 87 Winder Musket, the middle frame is an early panel-sided frame, and the bottom frame is the more common flat-sided frame. The text below the picture is an excerpt from the rough draft of my reference book.



This is a photo of an early (First variation) panel-sided low-wall in my collection (also a 22 Short, but with a 1/2 octagon barrel).



This a Second variation flat-side low-wall



Low-wall frame variations;

The low-wall frame was made in three distinctly different variations, with the Second Variation being the most common by a wide margin. The following paragraphs provide a brief physical description of the three low-wall frame variations, with the approximate serial number and production timeframe for each;

First Variation:

It features a frame with milled sides (paneled) just like the vast majority of the high-walls, and it has a full height breech block that is not scalloped (contour milled) to match the upper frame. It will always be found with a flat-spring action. Essentially, it is a high-wall with the rear portion of the frame (behind the breech block) milled down. The frame ring is threaded for the standard .825" small shank barrel. It could be threaded for a large shank (.935") barrel if special ordered with a No. 3 barrel, but it is very rarely encountered. The First Variation low-walls were made with a No. 1 barrel as standard, with a No. 2 barrel available as a special order option. The top of the frame ring is most often found with a milled longitudinal groove that allowed for a better sight picture when a No. 1 barrel was used. When a No. 2 barrel was special ordered, the longitudinal groove was omitted. The serial number range for the First Variation low-wall is from circa 2250 to circa 17,500 (early 1886 to late 1887). Because it is simply a milled down high-wall frame, the lower tang, stocks, and all other parts are interchangeable.

Second variation:

It features a flat-sided frame with a scalloped (contoured milled) breech block to match the upper frame. In order to make the Second Variation low-wall frame trimmer and to lighten the overall weight, Winchester eliminated the flared sections of the frame. This made the front and rear of the frame considerably thinner than the First Variation. The frame ring was threaded for the .825" small shank barrel only, and the No. 1 barrel was standard. As with the First Variation, the frame ring is milled with a longitudinal groove when a No. 1 barrel is present, and the groove was omitted when a No. 2 barrel was special ordered. The flat-spring action was used exclusively until 1908, then intermittently until being completely was phased out by the coil-spring action in early 1909. Shortly after the coil-spring was introduced in 1908, Takedown frames were offered. The serial number range for the Second Variation is from circa 16,500 to circa 125,000 (mid 1887 to January 1918). The lower tang is not interchangeable with the high-wall, or with the First and Third Variation low-wall frames. Many other parts will not interchange.

Third variation:

Found on the coil-spring action Model 87 Winder Muskets only. It has the same exact style milled sides as the First Variation low-wall frame, but with a scalloped (contour milled) breech block. The most unique feature of this variation is that they were all threaded for the large shank (.935") barrel. The top of the frame ring was never made with the milled longitudinal groove. This third and final low-wall variation was simply a high-wall frame that was milled down, and other than the breech block, it is identical to the Second Model high-wall Winder Musket. All parts including the lower tang are interchangeable with a coil-spring action high-wall. The serial number range is from circa 119,100 to 139735 (end of production). It was never available as a Takedown.

Bert H.

quote:Originally posted by peabo
If I remember correctly, the barrel was clearly marked '22 short'.
Could this be because it was a special order barrel so they marked it as such ? I thought it had a big gouge in the bottom of the barrel but he told me that it was the number '1', meaning a #1 barrel. Could it have been rebarreled at a later date and was marked at that time as '22short'? With the #1 on it, I would assume it is a factory barrel. If I could find the s/n, maybe you could verify how it left the factory.

Maybe he meant that it was the first year that that particular variation was made. I don't remember exactly what he said. Wish I could find him and see if he still has that rifle, or remembers it and may have some information on the rifle that he has in his files.
Due to the computer age and all the forums accessable by everyone, thought that you may have had some contact with him on some forum that you both may be interested in.

I know it wasn't made in 1885 because those were made by Browning and Winchester didn't start making them until, I believe, 1886.
I'm think it was a 5 digit s/n. Sure wish I could find my 'LOST' information on it.!!!!

I don't know why I am telling you this as you certainly know more about them than I ever will. That is unless I get a copy of the book that you are working on. Do you have any idea when your first book will be published?

When I find John H. or the info that I know I have on the rifle, I'll be sure to get it to you.


Thanks---Peabo


After circa serial number 8500, Winchester changed the caliber stamp from "22 CAL R.F." to "22 SHORT", then very quickly changed it again to "22 SHORT". If that rifle had a 5-digit serial number, chances are very good that it had the later style caliber stamp.

The number "1" (barrel size) stamped on the bottom of the barrel (just forward of the forestock tip) was standard practice throughout the Model 1885 production. If ordered with a No. 2 barrel, it would have a "2" stamped on it.

A 5-digit serial number places the production date no earlier than May of 1887 (almost two years into the Model 1885 production run, and one full year after production of the low-wall began).

John Browning & Brothers ceased production of the Browning Single-Shot shortly after Winchester purchased the patent from him in December of 1883. Winchester began production of the Model 1885 in September of 1885.

I am still a few years away from completing my research and eventual publication (I am a regular working stiff, and writing the book is purely my hobby).

peabo

Thanks, Bert, great pictures !!!!
What you are refering to as a 'panel side', was refered to as a 'thin side' in the reference material that I was reading. I don't remember the name of the book, or the author as that was a long time ago.

Bert, how did the 'winder musket' get it's name and what are the major differences? I think it may be primarily the stock? See, I need your reference book NOW !!!

Bert, if you wait to publish your book until you 'think' you have enough info, you will never get finished. So many guns, not enough info (to Publish). I suggest that you publish what you have now and call it 'volume one' for those of us who are really interested in the info that you already have. Then you could start on 'volume two'.
Keep up the good work and thanks.


Thanks---Peabo

Bert H.

Hello Peabo,

The term "thin-side" only applies to the high-wall, and it was most likely either Bill West's book or Madis' book that you read it in all those many years ago.

As it pertains to the low-wall, both the first variation and the third variation (Model 87) are dimensionally larger (thicker) than the more common second variation (flat-side) low-wall frame. If you look at the pictures closely, you can see that the upper tang on the Model 87 Winder is thicker than the first variation frame, and that the first variation is thicker than the second variation. For a better set of pictures and detailed explanation of the dimensional differences, go to this link - http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1168686763/24#24

As for how the "Winder" got its name, that was a result of the association between Col. Charles B. Winder of the Ohio National Guard and Winchester (circa early 1904). Col. Winder was specifically looking for an inexpensive (to shoot) firearm that was of similar weight and size to the new Springfield 1903 rifle. He approached Winchester with the idea to make a .22 caliber rimfire musket and use the same type sights as the Springfields in use at the time. Winchester accomodated Col. Winder by working with him, and they designed and created the first variation high-wall "Winder" Musket (with a Springfield Krag Model 1901 rear sight). Serial number 96709 was the first Winder Musket delivered to Col. Winder (11-21-1904). Serial number 96701 was the first Winder Musket delivered to the warehouse (10-24-1904).

As for the differences in the three types of Winder Muskets, the following text is also taken from my rough draft manuscript;

The Winder Muskets

The Winchester Winder Musket was manufactured in three distinctly different variations. What specifically distinguishes it from the standard Model 1885 Musket, is that all three Winder Musket variants were chambered for the .22 caliber rimfire cartridge versus a centerfire cartridge. The 22 Short was by far the most common chambering when the totals of all three variants are included. In the following paragraphs, each variant is described in detail.

All three Winder Musket variations were manufactured with a 28" round barrel only (approximately the same size as a No. 3 round barrel on the standard Sporting Rifle), and with a plain trigger (although a few examples have turned up with single-set triggers). A dovetail slot was never milled in the barrel for a rear sight. The frames were always blued, but the hammer, trigger, lever, and breech block were nearly always case color hardened.

According to records compiled by Herbert Houze, a total of 28,576 Winder Muskets were manufactured. From 1904 through 1907 (when coil spring actions were introduced), 7,418 high-wall Winder Muskets were mfg. From 1908 through 1917, an additional 8,423 high-wall Winder Muskets were mfg. Finally, from 1918 - 1923 (when the last Muskets were assembled from parts on-hand), Winchester manufactured 12,735 additional Winder Muskets that can be accounted for.

Model 1885 Sales Table

1904..... 1,505
1905..... 1,779
1906..... 1,907
1907..... 2,227
1908..... 581
1909..... 383
1910..... 532
1911..... 388
1912..... 393
1913..... 618
1914..... 727
1915..... 1,539
1916..... 1,460
1917..... 1,802
1918..... 7,354 (includes 6,692 sold to the U.S. Government*)
1919..... 5,010 (includes 4,627 sold to the U.S. Government*)
1920..... No figures available
1921..... 64
1922..... 32
1923..... 275

* U.S. Government sales include:

2,000 per contract 16363 of December 5, 1917
6,289 per contract P3745-1549Sa of May 15, 1918
2,000 per contract P10430-1903Sa of June 21, 1918
1,000 per contract P11979-2051Sa of July 16, 1918


First Variation:

The production period was from January 1904 to December of 1911. The serial number range is 96,701 - 110,000, with a fair number of guns on both sides of the normal number range. The First variation was built on a high-wall, flat-spring action frame to March 1908, then a coil-spring action thereafter. It featured a barrel mounted rear sight that was either a Buffington Hotchkiss style, or a Krag Jorgensen Model 1901 military windgauge sight that was mounted several inches forward of the frame ring. The earliest examples were predominantly equipped with the Hotchkiss style rear sight, but the vast majority will be found with the Krag Jorgenson sight. The front sight is small block (post) that is silver-soldered to the barrel, and has a thin blade that is pinned in place. It is essentially identical to the Carbine sight found on the Winchester Model 1892 and 1894. The forend stock was retained by with a pair of barrel bands and spring clips (identical to the standard Musket), and it was not manufactured with an elongated finger groove. A total of 7,418 units were sold from 1904 through 1907. Sales from 1908 through December 1911 totaled 1,884 additional units, with the bulk of this number being coil-spring actions. There were undoubtedly a few additional guns made beyond December of 1911 to use up the remaining First Model parts. Takedown frames were offered starting in 1908. The vast majority of the First variation muskets were chambered for the 22 LONG R rimfire cartridge, with a smaller number chambered for the 22 SHORT rimfire cartridge.

Second Variation:

The production period was from December 1911 (per Change in Manufacture Notice 13671) to late 1917, with a small number of additional guns being made up through 1919 to use up the remaining parts that were on hand. The Second variation was also built on a high-wall frame, but with a coil-spring action only. It was available in Takedown. It also featured a barrel mounted Krag Jorgensen Model 1901 military windgauge rear sight, but in all cases observed by this author, the sight was mounted to the barrel immediately forward of the frame ring. Allegedly, a few were made in 1918 with the frame mounted Lyman No. 53 receiver sight, but none have been positively verified. The front sight is a milled ramp that is silver-soldered to the barrel, and has a standard 3/8" milled dovetail slot. The primary difference between the First Variation and the Second Variation is the forend stock. It is retained by a single barrel band and a spring clip, and it features an elongated finger groove. The serial number range is from 110,000- 122,100, but again, there are a small number of guns on either side of the normal number range. The total production is estimated at 7,201. The cartridge chambering was nearly equally split between the 22 LONG R and 22 SHORT, with the 22 LONG R being the predominant cartridge chambering in the front half of the production period.

Both the First and Second Variation Winder Muskets were listed and cataloged as Model 1885s. According to Herbert Houze2, an unknown number of the early First Models were shipped to the Ohio National Guard (Col. Charles B. Winder), and to the New York Public Schools Athletic League (Gen. George W. Wingate). The total production is estimated at 16,503 Model 1885 Winder Muskets.

Third Variation:

The production period was from January of 1918, to June of 1920 (when regular production of the Model 1885 Single-shot ceased). Built on a low-wall, coil spring action frame only, never offered in Takedown. It featured a Lyman No. 53 receiver mounted rear peep sight located on the right-hand side of the frame with four 6-48 screws. The front sight and forend stock are identical to the Second variation Winder Musket, but shortly after production began, a transverse band screw was used to retain the barrel band instead of a spring clip (that change was an Edwin Pugsley innovation to simplify production, and it was authorized May 6th, 19183). The serial number range is 119,500 - 139,700, but early in production, a fair number of guns were made using left-over high-wall frames in the 100,000 -109,000 serial range. An estimated total of 12,073 were manufactured. The vast majority of this variation will be found chambered for the 22 SHORT cartridge, but a very small percentage were chambered for the 22 LONG R cartridge (less than 3% of the total production). In April of 1919, Edwin Pugsley was asked to rechamber a small number of them for the 22 LONG R cartridge in anticipation that the government would shortly make that change4. Unfortunately, the U.S. Government canceled the remaining contract orders due to the impending Armistice and end of WW I. There was also are a very scant few that were chambered for the 22 LONG rimfire cartridge, and at least one specimen that was chambered for the 25-20 W.C.F. repeater cartridge. For a reason unknown to this author, the Third variation was cataloged and listed by Winchester as the "Model 87", but it was a Model 1885 in all respects.

The Third Model is the only confirmed variation that was specifically manufactured for the U.S. Military. Winchester signed a contract with the U.S. Army in late 1917, and the first order (for 2,000) was let on December 5th, 1917. Actual production began in early January of 1918. Of the estimated 12,073 Model 87 Winder Muskets manufactured, 11,319 of them were shipped to the United States Army's Springfield armory. Those that were accepted by the Springfield Armory were stamped on the upper tang directly behind the hammer with the letters "U S" and a flaming ordnance bomb. According to my research of the Springfield Research records, many of those martially marked Model 87s ended up in National Guard units, College and High-school ROTC units, Railroads, and U.S. Coast Guard stations. Those same records show that they were then later disposed of through the DCM in the years 1922 - 1942 (see the Springfield Research records table).


For all of you interested readers, I am still conducting a statistical survey of all the surviving Winder Muskets that I can locate in an attempt to recreate the destroyed factory records to the maximum extent possible. If you are interested in participating in this survey please contact me at Win1885@msn.com and I will email a survey form to you.