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Plated Win 1894 rifle

flashbackjackflashbackjack Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
edited November 2007 in Ask the Experts
I have a Winchester 94 rifle(cr 1917) that has an odd silver like matted finish on the lever, top of bolt, mag tube and ring and butt plate At first glance it looks like the metal parts were painted with silver paint but it is a coating.. Any clues?[?]

Comments

  • 1KYDSTR1KYDSTR Member Posts: 2,361 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Aaah Boy...sounds like someone got crazy with the newer oven bake coatings on the market. I'm not sure and without poictures REALLY can't say for sure what has happened here, but Winchedster to my knowledge ever fif anything like that. Bert H and others will be along presently to enlighten you...or depress you with the relative loss of collector value!
  • Bill DeShivsBill DeShivs Member Posts: 1,264 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It sounds like someone had it hard-chromed.
    Bill
  • flashbackjackflashbackjack Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I traded a beat up ,97 Win. 16 gage for it and only because the rifle is a 38/55 with a great bore The reciever was coated also but had been mostly filed off. I cleaned it up by hand filing .... the filings were black. The mag tube looks like it was rusted and coated over but if you file it down to the original metal you find no rust layer??? It buffs out to a bright silver finish but eventually tarnishes like silver ...... I can scan in some pics....Jack
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    At this point, it is a moot issue what it was plated or finished with. If it was not already ruined, you absolutely completed the botch job by taking a file to the gun. It is now a nearly worthless piece of junk[xx(]. Amateurs such as yourself should never attempt to work on classic (collectable) firearms[V].

    As for the "odd silver" finish, it might have been factory original nickel or silver plating.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • flashbackjackflashbackjack Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    So your take on this is I should have left the rifle in the condition I found it??? That was not a logical or financial option. The remaining plating was carefully removed from the reciever and the file marks were finished off with emery cloth. It has nice crisp lettering and corners. A nice even blue brown patena was applied. Even a real expert like you couldn't tell it was once a worthless piece of junk. Want some amateur photos of the results??
  • givettegivette Member Posts: 10,886
    edited November -1
    Flashback: givette here. If it really looks good, you may/can get a sale out of it. But not from a collector. As soon as there's the slightest evidence of alteration from original, (read: making pretty, or forced antiquing) collectors won't touch it. Please don't get me wrong, I'm sure it looks real nice. Collectors are looking for an item that wasn't tampered with. And they can tell when it has been.

    Your firearm will catch someone's eye. And if priced right, you will also get a buyer for it. However If you put it on Gunbroker for sale, I recommend that you indicate up front that it's been re-done. Will save you the hassle of having to take back a return.

    Here's a for instance scenario. The 1913 Colt below is completely original, all parts 1913, lettering perfect, edges crisp, etc. But it's been re-blued. Re-bluing really made it look good. Re-bluing dropped the value of it by almost $1,000. It is no longer in the "collectible" category. Joe
    45ACPBullets011.jpg
  • dcinffxvadcinffxva Member Posts: 2,830 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by flashbackjack
    So your take on this is I should have left the rifle in the condition I found it??? That was not a logical or financial option. The remaining plating was carefully removed from the reciever and the file marks were finished off with emery cloth. It has nice crisp lettering and corners. A nice even blue brown patena was applied. Even a real expert like you couldn't tell it was once a worthless piece of junk. Want some amateur photos of the results??


    I have to agree fully with Bert on this one. I have seen a fair amount of guns that someone has "rescued" and totally destroyed the value and collectability of. Just to give an example, not long ago, there was a Fayetteville musket on here for sale. As is typical with Confederate pieces, it had a fair amount of pitting, and showed some hard use. The owner decided to make it look nice for sale, and buffed it out, refinished the stock etc. After he was done, it was a nice looking piece, but it didn't sell. The highest bid as I recall was $2,500.00.

    A Fayetteville musket in unaltered condition, as his was before he refinished it would have easily sold for between $18,000-$20,000.

    So, to answer your question, yes, you should have left it in the condition in which you received it. I'm sure it looks nice since you worked on it, but the value of it to anyone looking for one just took a serious nosedive.

    I buy refinished pieces from time to time, but I buy them as shooters, not as collectables. I picked up a Springfield model 1888 that had been reblued for $450.00. Had the previous owner not reblued it, it would have been a very valuable rifle, as it is in the last few black-powder rifles ever made for the US Government.
  • Spider7115Spider7115 Member Posts: 29,704 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dcinffxva
    quote:Originally posted by flashbackjack
    So your take on this is I should have left the rifle in the condition I found it??? That was not a logical or financial option. The remaining plating was carefully removed from the reciever and the file marks were finished off with emery cloth. It has nice crisp lettering and corners. A nice even blue brown patena was applied. Even a real expert like you couldn't tell it was once a worthless piece of junk. Want some amateur photos of the results??


    I have to agree fully with Bert on this one. I have seen a fair amount of guns that someone has "rescued" and totally destroyed the value and collectability of. Just to give an example, not long ago, there was a Fayetteville musket on here for sale. As is typical with Confederate pieces, it had a fair amount of pitting, and showed some hard use. The owner decided to make it look nice for sale, and buffed it out, refinished the stock etc. After he was done, it was a nice looking piece, but it didn't sell. The highest bid as I recall was $2,500.00.

    A Fayetteville musket in unaltered condition, as his was before he refinished it would have easily sold for between $18,000-$20,000.

    So, to answer your question, yes, you should have left it in the condition in which you received it. I'm sure it looks nice since you worked on it, but the value of it to anyone looking for one just took a serious nosedive.

    I buy refinished pieces from time to time, but I buy them as shooters, not as collectables. I picked up a Springfield model 1888 that had been reblued for $450.00. Had the previous owner not reblued it, it would have been a very valuable rifle, as it is in the last few black-powder rifles ever made for the US Government.

    Did you get that at the Hampton show? I saw one there that was beautifully refinished but it had a blued breechblock rather than case hardened. It was probably in excellent shape before rebluing. I almost bought it myself. If not the Hampton show, maybe it was still the same rifle at another show. It was definitely nice for a shooter.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by flashbackjack
    So your take on this is I should have left the rifle in the condition I found it??? That was not a logical or financial option. The remaining plating was carefully removed from the reciever and the file marks were finished off with emery cloth. It has nice crisp lettering and corners. A nice even blue brown patena was applied. Even a real expert like you couldn't tell it was once a worthless piece of junk. Want some amateur photos of the results??


    Yes, you should have left it alone. I fail to understand what "logic" you used to dictate that it was not an option to leave it as is. Your statement concerning it not being a "financial option" is completely ludicrous. Please, and for my benefit, explain exactly how it was finacially benefical to expend your time and effort filing and sanding away on the various parts of that gun, and then applying the "blue brown patena" (sic) (BTW, it is properly spelled "patina"). Leaving it alone cost you nothing[:0].

    As for your statement quote:Even a real expert like you couldn't tell it was once a worthless piece of junk. I can absolutely guarantee you that I can spot your handy work from at least two rows away. By all means, please post pictures of it.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • gotstolefromgotstolefrom Member Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey Flash...You HAVE to step up here. Post Pics.
    Without pics, nobody can be SURE what the piece is, so post them.

    I fully agree with the comments of Bert, Givette, and others on true collectibles. But I don't have the wallet for that, I have to go to museums.
    That said, there is a place for restored shooters, which may have been your intent. To repair or restored the ability to shoot, or to be maintained in operating condition. OK, maybe you made a mistake here..not knowing what you had...or what techniques to use...but I'm pretty sure everyone on this post has made mistakes, and learned something from them.

    SHOW PICS. Even if it confirms other's opinions, you've gone this far. Enlighten us all.
  • flashbackjackflashbackjack Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Gentelmen
    To clear up a few points.....The rifle was purchased as a shooter Because I do not have a 38/55 and always wanted one. I did not say or infer that I was going to "fix it up" to sell. I got it at the the right price. I traded even over for a '97 Winchester I had $250.00 tied up in. The gun was already plated (it has been determined that it did not leave the factory that way) with the uglyiest coating you have ever seen. About 99%of the coating had already been filed off the frame and a great deal of rust had settled in. It took about an hour to remove the left over coating and reblue the frame. ( The coating was fairly soft so most of file marks were removed with emery cloth wrapped around a flat file).The rifle has great wood ,very good bore original sights And a nice shooter............I am replacing the mag tube and other plated parts with original vintage 94 parts I have on hand.... There is a Dilemma though .... The butt plate is numbered to the gun. Are you all going to freak out if I remove the plating from it and reblue.?.......Jack

    I will send photo as soon as I figure it out.......
  • Spider7115Spider7115 Member Posts: 29,704 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by flashbackjack
    Gentelmen
    To clear up a few points.....The rifle was purchased as a shooter Because I do not have a 38/55 and always wanted one. I did not say or infer that I was going to "fix it up" to sell. I got it at the the right price. I traded even over for a '97 Winchester I had $250.00 tied up in. The gun was already plated (it has been determined that it did not leave the factory that way) with the uglyiest coating you have ever seen. About 99%of the coating had already been filed off the frame and a great deal of rust had settled in. It took about an hour to remove the left over coating and reblue the frame. ( The coating was fairly soft so most of file marks were removed with emery cloth wrapped around a flat file).The rifle has great wood ,very good bore original sights And a nice shooter............I am replacing the mag tube and other plated parts with original vintage 94 parts I have on hand.... There is a Dilemma though .... The butt plate is numbered to the gun. Are you all going to freak out if I remove the plating from it and reblue.?.......Jack

    I will send photo as soon as I figure it out.......



    No one is going to freak out. It's your rifle and yours to do as you wish. However, once you're finished, I'm sure you will extend Bert's field of vision from 2 rows to 6.
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