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C&R Shotgun?
cbxjeff
Member Posts: 17,624 ✭✭✭✭
I was looking at a 70 year old Iver Johnson shotgun and got to wondering if it was C&R eligible. Looking at the list I haven't found any shotguns at all. Are there any?
cbxjeff<P>It's too late for me, save yourself. <br>
cbxjeff<P>It's too late for me, save yourself. <br>
It's too late for me, save yourself.
Comments
Mark T. Christian
cbxjeff<P>It's too late for me, save yourself. <br>
I would double check that Mark. The gun becomes eligible for C&R at 50 years. Other guns that are not that old need to have some feature that would make them C&R eligible. The gun does need to be on the list for it to be a C&R. You can request the ATF to add a certain firearm if you want.
Mooseyard...
Mark was completely correct in his statement (you are the person who should double check the regulations). As Mark stated, a firearm does not need to be on the list if it is 50 years of age or older... it automatically becomes a C&R firearm on its 50th birthday. I would kindly suggest that you read the precise text that I have cut & pasted from the BATFE's website...
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/faq.htm
Licensed Collectors
What is a firearm curio or relic?
Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
1.) Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or
2.) Be certified by the curator of a municipal, state or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or
3.) Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.
[27 CFR 178.11]
Is there a specific license that permits a collector to acquire firearms in interstate commerce?
Yes. The person may obtain a collector's license; however, this license applies only to transactions in curio or relic firearms. The principal advantage of a collector's license is that a licensed collector can acquire curios or relics in interstate commerce.
[27 CFR 178.41(c), (d), 178.50(b) and 178.93]
How does one get a collector's license?
Submit ATF Form 7CR, Application for License (Collector of Curios or Relics), with the appropriate fee in accordance with the instructions on the form. These forms may be obtained from the Firearms and Explosives Licensing Center in Atlanta, Georgia, your local ATF office, or downloaded from ATF's Internet site; www.atf.treas.gov.
[27 CFR 178.41(c)]
Does a collector's license afford any privileges to the licensee with respect to acquiring or disposing of firearms other than curios or relics in interstate or foreign commerce?
No. A licensed collector has the same status under the Gun Control Act (GCA) as a nonlicensee except for transactions in curio or relic firearms.
[27 CFR 178.93]
Does the Federal firearms law require licensed collectors to comply with state laws and local published ordinances which are relevant to the enforcement of the GCA?
Yes. It is unlawful for any licensed collector to sell or deliver any firearm or ammunition to any person if the person's purchase or possession would be in violation of any State law or local published ordinance applicable at the place of sale or delivery.
[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(2), 27 C.F.R. 178.99(b)(2)]
Does a license as a collector of curio or relic firearms authorize the collector to engage in the business of dealing in curios or relics?
No. A collector's license only enables the collector to transport, ship, receive, and acquire curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and to make disposition of curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, to any other licensee, for the period stated on the license. A collector's license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector bring the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer, he shall qualify as such. A dealer's license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a)(1), 27 CFR 178.41(c)(d)]
What does "engaged in business" mean?
The term "engaged in business," as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.
[27 CFR 178.11]
Are licensed collectors transfers of curio or relic firearms subject to the Brady law, including the provision for making background checks on transferees?
No. Transfers of curio or relic firearms by licensed collectors are not subject to the requirements of the Brady law. However, it is unlawful to transfer a firearm to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person is a felon or is within any other category of persons prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms.
[18 U.S.C. 922 (d), 27 CFR 178.32 (d), 18 U.S.C. 922(t)]
Is the transfer of a firearm by a licensed dealer to a licensed collector subject to the Brady law?
The Brady law does not apply to the transfer of a curio or relic firearm to a licensed collector. However, a licensed collector who acquires a firearm other than a curio or relic from a licensee would be treated like a nonlicensee, and the transfer would be subject to Brady requirements.
Are licensed collectors required to execute ATF Form 4473 for transactions in curio or relic firearms?
No. Licensed collectors are only required to keep a "bound book" record.
[27 CFR 178.125(f)]
Are licensed collectors required to comply with the requirements that written notification be given to handgun transferees and signs be posted on juvenile handgun possession?
The requirement that written notification concerning juvenile handgun possession be given by licensees to a nonlicensee to whom a handgun is delivered applies to curio or relic handguns transferred by licensed collectors. However, the sign posting requirement does not apply to licensed collectors. In the case of collectors, a requirement to post signs at the licensed premises would serve no purpose because the premises is not a business premises open to the public, and licensed collectors may lawfully dispose of curio or relic handguns away from their licensed premises.
[18 U.S.C. 922 (x), 27 CFR 178.103]
Can a licensed collector sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a nonlicensed resident of another state?
Yes. A licensed collector is specifically authorized to sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a nonlicensed resident of another State so long as 1.) The purchaser meets with the licensee in person at the licensee's premises to accomplish the transfer, sale, and delivery of the rifle or shotgun; and 2.) The sale, delivery, and receipt of the rifle or shotgun fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such states.
[27 CFR 178.96 (c)(1)]
Are licensed collectors required to turn in their acquisition/disposition records to ATF if their collector's license is not renewed or they discontinue their collecting activity?
No. The GCA requires the delivery of required records to the Government within 30 days after a firearm "business" is discontinued. A license as a collector of curios or relics does not authorize any business with respect to firearms. This is in contrast to firearm importers, manufacturers, and dealers who are licensed to engage in a firearms business. Therefore, the records required to be kept by licensed collectors under the law and regulations are not business records and are not required to be turned in to ATF when collectors' licenses are not renewed or collecting activity under such licenses is discontinued.
[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(4), 27 CFR 178.127]
May a licensed collector obtain NFA firearms in interstate commerce?
Only if the firearms are classified as curios or relics, are registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record, and are transferred in accordance with the provisions of the NFA.
[27 CFR 179.83 - 179.86]
May semiautomatic assault weapons which have been classified as curios or relics be imported?
Not unless they are being imported for sale to a government agency or law enforcement officer employed by such agency for official use. Since ATF will not approve an importation which would place the importer in violation of the law, ATF would not authorize the importation of semiautomatic assault weapons, even if classified as curios or relics, unless the importer provided evidence that the weapons were being imported for sale to a governmental entity or other exempt purchaser.
[18 U.S.C. 922(v)]
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!
WACA Historian & Life Member
Thank you, thank you, Bert H. I go through this "on the list, not on the list" thing so darned often in buying old guns long distance it makes my butt hurt. On the BATF site, this cap-letter note precedes the formal C&R list: "NOTE: THE FOLLOWING LIST OF CURIOS OR RELICS IS NOT ALL INCLUSIVE." That would suggest, of course, that not all C&R guns are on the C&R list. The 50-year-rule seems clear as a bell; the trick, unfortunately, is verifying the age of some guns. In that sense, I can sort of sympathize with a seller who's being cautious.
You are quite welcome. I have had the same experience, and as a result, I long ago saved that specific web address. When I deal with someone who is not fully enlightened, I send them the web address and ask that they read it... it usually ends the debate.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!
WACA Historian & Life Member
The chronic problem that exists seems to be based in fear -- a "better safe than sorry" attitude with some importers and distributors. I have found that certain suppliers have a policy that they simply will not sell a gun to a C&R holder that is not on the BATFE's C&R list, period. I really wonder how many of them would be swayed by this quotation. It may be the law, but if these companies won't trust it and act accordingly, we C&Rs can't buy from those sources.
But my sincere thanks for the correct text of the law, and I wish us all luck in convincing them.
T. Jefferson: "[When doing Constitutional interpretation], let us [go] back to the time when [it] was adopted. [Rather than] invent a meaning [let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
Bert --
The chronic problem that exists seems to be based in fear -- a "better safe than sorry" attitude with some importers and distributors. I have found that certain suppliers have a policy that they simply will not sell a gun to a C&R holder that is not on the BATFE's C&R list, period. I really wonder how many of them would be swayed by this quotation. It may be the law, but if these companies won't trust it and act accordingly, we C&Rs can't buy from those sources.
But my sincere thanks for the correct text of the law, and I wish us all luck in convincing them.
T. Jefferson: "[When doing Constitutional interpretation], let us [go] back to the time when [it] was adopted. [Rather than] invent a meaning [let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
Offeror...
I completely understand what you are saying, and I have dealt with a few of those outfits myself... however, I always make it very clear to them that they are losing business through their professed ignorance (and no, I do not put it to them in those exact words[:D]).
Most (if not all) people/companies who are in the business of selling firearms can not afford to lose sales especially if there is a possibility that they may not fully understand the rules. I always very politely offer to send them the information taken directly from the BATFE's website, and have actually done so on numerous occasions... not once have I failed to convince them of what the federal statuate really says and means. Most were simply just not aware of what the rules state. Because I deal almost exclusively with Winchester made firearms, it is fortunately very easy to determine DOMs.
It behooves all of us that hold Class 03 Federal Firearms Licenses to become fully educated as to what the statuates really are, and to be adamant in our dealings with those that have Class 01 licenses. I honestly believe that the vast majority of those "better safe than sorry" people/businesses are more than willing to change their business practices when shown proper documentation supporting what is actually a legal sale & transfer of a C&R eligble firearm.
Best of luck to you in your future collecting endeavors.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!
WACA Historian & Life Member
I'm sorry guys but I got my info from my local ATF examiner. I was the one that told me that the 50 year rule was just a guideline for the ATF to add the gun to the list. They told me that if it wasn't on the list it wasn't C&R. I was going by their info. I guess that was my fault for listening to the the government.
Ya sure got that right.
Ok, not that I knew anything about it, but it's simply amazing what a government employee will tell you when they don't really have a clue.
Semper Fi
Remember Ruby Ridge.
Experience is the best teacher and usually charges accordingly.