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russian shells?
jeff lee
Member Posts: 7 ✭✭
i have two boxes of shells they have stamped on the bottom 7.92 mm 42 can anyone tell me what i have i think they are russian but not sure thank you jeff lee
Comments
I think what you may have is 8mm Mauser ammo. Where it was manufactured can't be said.
Without a photo and with the information you provided, it is almost impossible to identify anything else about the cartridges, especially the originating country and arsenal.
Unless somebody recognizes the style, there is not much else that can be said without more headstamp information or a photo.
Regards,
Heavyiron
Now we are getting someplace.
P198 is the headstamp arsenal code and a very important piece of information because it tells us the country of origin and the arsenal where it was made. P198 is the arsenal code for Metallwarenfabrik Treuenbritzen G.m.b.H., Werk R?derhof, Germany and the ammo was manufactured July 1936. Therefore, these are German 8mm Mauser/7.92x57mm rounds.
I would also venture to say these rounds have brass cases even though you didn't mention it. How did I know? S* is the German code for brass case. So you provided another good piece of information.
Now, in order to tell if these rounds are tracers or not, we need to know the color of the primer annulus, the color of the bullet tip, or any other color markings on the cases or bullets.
As for the Japanese ammo, it is very difficult to identify and type. The ammo you have is probably either 7.7mm or 6.5mm Japanese. Most of the Japanese army ammo was made without headstamps, although navy and air force were made with headstamps. If you describe any of these it would be good to know the diameter of the bullet to know which round you are describing. Also important is whether the rounds are rimmed, semi-rimmed, or rimless as the Japanese used all those mentioned within the same caliber. Also you need to determine the color of the case mouth and the color of the primer annulus. Japanese color coding varied for the army and navy and were not uniform for all calibers in each service. Very confusing.
Regards,
Heavyiron
Otherwise, his information is completely correct.
To expand on his comments a bit . . . . The marking for tracer ammunition in the German scheme was red sealant around the primer. Additional colors (most commonly black) on the bullet or colors at the case mouth designate other loadings, other loadings which incorporate a tracer component or various types of specialty tracers.
Gulp - I hate to say this, but I must respectfully say that Iconoclast and I may not agree about the meaning of the S* code on the P coded and 1936 dated ammunition.
Iconoclast is absolutely correct about the 7.92x57 Mauser with S-patrone bullet. The S-patrone designates a 0.323 diameter bullet compared to the earlier J-patrone of 0.318 diameter. The switch was made in 1905. I believe the early cartridges after the switch, up to about 1923 carried an S code to designate the larger diameter bullet.
However, circa 1923 forward the S or S* designated the brass alloy composition of the cartridge case for P coded ammo. The S code designated 67% copper, 33% zinc and the S* designated 72% copper, 28% zinc. Due to my research on this subject all of the P coded ammunition between 1927 to 1941 may have been brass cased, but I only have one source that says this and can't confirm it with a second source.
The St codes were something different. St = lacquered steel case; St+ = lacquered steel case with reinforced case bottom, and -St+ = lacquered steel case with reinforced case bottom and with only one oversized flash hole. Leave it to the Germans to be this anally precise. There were also material codes but we don't need to get into that.
Below is an internet source that mentions the definition of S* headstamped ammo.
http://www.lerenfort.fsnet.co.uk/page42.html
Additionally, the Small Arms Ammunition Identification Guide, Volume I, May 1987, page 130 states " . . . and * or S* indicates a brass case."
The only reason for listing the sources of information is that German codes can be very confusing and I know Iconoclast will want to know where the information came from. If my sources are wrong he will know it and correct the record.
Stay tuned.
Respectfully,
Heavyiron
You are correct. You second source is GERMAN 7.9MM AMMUNITION by Kent.
The + is the designation for the modified head and for some reason I added the * to this in my feeble mind.
My apologies!
P3skyking, thanks for the reference.
Heavyiron