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Winchester Model 1894 odd Serial Number

declyndeclyn Member Posts: 11 ✭✭
edited January 2007 in Ask the Experts
First, I would just like to say that I am a long time lurker, first time poster. I like this board alot and it has some great info on it.

I am trying to confirm some information about the serial number on a winchester model 1894 that has been in the family for an undetermined length of time.

The serial number is LL7764. I have scoured the internet for info on that number, but I have not seen any reference to a serial number starting with any alpha characters.

Until recently that is. From what I understand the LL should be 'translated to' 11, and that for some reason winchester used L instead of the #1 for a bit.

If that really is true then that would make the manufacture date of my winchester 1898.

Has anyone else heard of winchester using an 'L' instead of a '1'?

The rifle looks like it could easily be that old... so it might be correct I just can't seem to find any documentation to support what i have heard.

Thank you in advance for your help!
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Comments

  • kimikimi Member Posts: 44,719 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Welcome to GB forums. The LL that you are referring to is most probably the digits 11. This type impression of the numeral 1 is most often encountered in the serial range that you have noted. What has happened is that the numbering die was worn out, in this case, at the top portion, and the lower left part of the digit 1, thus giving it the apperance of the letter L.

    Reference: Book - The Winchester Model 94 The First 100 Years, by Robert C. Renneberg
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  • nyforesternyforester Member Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hi declyn
    Welcome to the Forum.
    Can you send a few pictures so we can all check it out ?
    Thanks,
    Pete
    Abort Cuomo
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  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello declyn,

    The "LL" on your Model 1894 is indeed actually a "11". I have covered this topic several times on this forum (use the Search function to find my previous posts on this topic). The same "LL" serial number stamp appears on the Models 1892, 1894, 1897, and 1912. After quite a bit of study and observation, I do not believe the theory of a "broken" set of number dies. I have personally seen and handled at least 3 dozen different Winchester (several different models) in the past few years, and I am of the belief that the person in the engraving shop who cut the dies made them that way on purpose.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

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  • declyndeclyn Member Posts: 11 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks for the quick confirmations!

    I did recently take some picuters, but they came out a bit dark... I will see if I might be able to make them a bit more visible with a editing program.

    BTW I did try searching the forum for this subject, but it turned up 0 results. I was not a registered member at the time, not sure if I was just using it wrong or if not being a member made a difference.

    Either way I greatly appreciate yalls help in putting my mind at rest on this subject. It has really been driving me nuts.
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  • declyndeclyn Member Posts: 11 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I just went and re-tried the search... it still didnt work, but I figured out why.

    When I did the search I clicked the check box to look in the archived posts, thinking this would expand my available info to search in, and for some reason that gives me 0 results.

    I do it with out clicking that box and I get TONS of results.

    I suspect I have made a newbie mistake there, sorry!
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  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by declyn
    I just went and re-tried the search... it still didnt work, but I figured out why.

    When I did the search I clicked the check box to look in the archived posts, thinking this would expand my available info to search in, and for some reason that gives me 0 results.

    I do it with out clicking that box and I get TONS of results.

    I suspect I have made a newbie mistake there, sorry!


    No need to apologize... you figured it out much faster than most[:)]

    WACA Historian & Life Member

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  • kimikimi Member Posts: 44,719 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert, your theory on the shape of the number in question certainly has merit, as does Renneberg's. Although I have personally observed what I would consider a great many Winchesters with this type marking, I never gave it much thought since Winchester used a great many different styles of dies for the number 1. I did, however, think it was a very odd shape, even to the point of thinking why it was made so much like an L.

    In your previous writings on this subject, have you specifically addreessed whether or not other shapes for the number 1 appeared in the range of say, 117764 (declyn's WInchester) to 85816 (Renneberg's picture in aforementioned reference)? I would think it would be quite possible that no other die marking for the number 1 appears anywhere in this range, and if that's the case, it would lend much credence to your idea, which looks to be a very good one, indeed.
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  • declyndeclyn Member Posts: 11 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    ok well i was unable to get the pictures i took to look any better, but ill post what i have that are at least decent.

    the issue is with pictures of the entire gun, so i will retake some later and post them.

    The pics are large so i am just going to link to them...

    This is the best picture i have that covers the majority of the gun:
    http://gallery.filefront.com/declyn41//423337/1/

    http://gallery.filefront.com/declyn41//423334/1/

    http://gallery.filefront.com/declyn41//423332/1/

    http://gallery.filefront.com/declyn41//423330/1/

    and the serial number pic:
    http://gallery.filefront.com/declyn41//423329/1/
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  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I forgot to mention in my previous replies, that based on the serial number on your Model 1894, it was manufactured late in the year 1901 or early 1902 versus 1898. The last bonafide "Antique" (pre-1899) Model 1894 was serial number 53941.

    If you would like to know the exact date it was recieved in the warehouse (considered the DOM), contact the Cody Firearms Museum and purchase a factory letter (a $55 fee for non-members) - http://www.bbhc.org/firearms/records.cfm

    edited to correct the Model and estimated DOM

    WACA Historian & Life Member

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  • declyndeclyn Member Posts: 11 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I might end up checking with the museum about that.

    Sadly I inherited the rifle when my father in law died about 3 years ago.

    And now, suddenly, my mother in law has asked me to find out how much the gun is worth because she might want to sell it.

    since i have not been able to pin down the info about the serial number i have not been able to give her a value of the rifle.

    i seriously dont want her to sell it but i dont have the cash to offer to her so i can just keep it.

    kind of frustrating since i have had the gun for 3 years, but its not worth the family turmoil to get my back up about it.

    it really frustrates me because it is a piece of family history that i dont want to let go of.

    worse she has me researching a black powder rifle that has been in the family so long that its been claimed to belong to the family's orginal settlers to america (claimed is key here).

    my father in law had severial rifles that she wants me to research to sell, all of which i have had since he died basically.

    annoying as hell situation but the reasearch has been fun.
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