H&R Handy Gun 410 with 19-1/2" Barrel?

davidefs

This type of gun has a lot of information on it here and in other forums, but not with this configuration, or not that I've seen. Note that it is not in my possession, I'm only asking about it out of curiosity.

It is an H&R Handy Gun with a smooth bore .410 barrel. The barrel is 19-1/2" and has what looks like a weld ring at about 8-1/2" from the muzzle as if it were added on to an original 11" or cut down to that before being added on to, if it was. The gun has a removable wire stock that hooks into the bottom and attaches to the top of the handle.

I'm wondering if anyone knows if it is manufactured this way or modified, and in either case if it is legal to own without NFA registration, since it does have a more than legal length barrel and a stock, albeit detachable. It has the stamps "H&R Handy Gun" and "410-12m/m" in their normal places but no apparent serial number. Where would the serial number be? And if it does happen to be legal, whether original or not, would it be valued in the same range as the NFA/AOW guns? Thanks in advance for your help.

rufe-snow

Sounds like it would be legal with 19.5 barrel, as long as the overall length is at least 26", not including the folding stock.

The feds unfortunately would have the last word on it though.

Because it has been bubbaed to make it legal don't see how it would be a big buck item like a original short barreled HG that was papered prior to 68. More a wall hanger type conversation piece to shot how dumb the federal firearms laws are.

davidefs

Hmm, 26"? Nope. 24-1/2" even when measured at an angle from the muzzle to the butt. So not legal because of that, and yet I can go buy all the five shot 410 revolvers I want. Great.

Hey, if it's otherwise legal because of being "bubbaed" into a 19-1/2" barrel, what if the stock was welded on permanently? Same thing?

huntsman53

Why would you want to own it considering that Bubba bubbaed it! The gun originally came with a 12 1/4" barrel. Therefore Bubba cut the barrel just behind the bead sight and welded another piece of a shotgun barrel or maybe even a pipe to it, to make it supposedly legal to own without registering it with the ATF according to the Laws regarding the National Firearms Act (title II of the gun control act of 1968). The gun might be a good shooter but do you really know how good of a job Bubba did in welding it?? Probably not and I for one would not take a chance on shooting it...legal or otherwise! My advice is to let Bubba keep it and let him deal with the ATF!!!

Edited to add: I am pretty sure but hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong, since the Handy Gun is on the list of guns which must be registered with them under the above act, it still must be registered with them, no matter what modifications have been made! Get caught with it, without it being registered and you may have to spend some quality time behind bars and you will never be allowed to own it or any other gun again.

Bill DeShivs

A Handy gun without a barrel, with a rifled barrel, or with a smoothbore barrel 18" plus, is not an NFA firearm. Only when the smoothbore barrel of less than 18" is available, is the gun an NFA weapon.

davidefs

Bill, does that then negate the issue of overall length? It is ~24" from front to back overall, without the removeable stock.

Bill DeShivs

I believe so. Check with ATF, and ask them (in writing) if an H&R Handy Gun without a barrel is an NFA weapon.

davidefs

Thank you all for your answers. After some research on the ATF's website I found the following in the NFA handbook updated April 2009. It seems pretty clear and renders the gun legal as is, with no reference to the stock being removable (not foldable), as would be any other stock that can potentially be removed. So, probably not worth much since not original, but legal to own. As for shooting, it has been tested many times with 3" shells and is rock solid. My Great Grandfather was actually a gun manufacturer (you all would know his name), and he is the one who did the work. I'll share more after the final determination through a lawyer is made.

Anyway, since you all were kind enough to offer your knowledge, I thought you might be interested in the regs:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf

"Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components.

Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon.

For example, a shotgun with a barrel length of 15 inches is an NFA weapon. If the 15- inch barrel is removed and disposed of, the remaining firearm is not subject to the NFA because it has no barrel.
Likewise, if the 15 inch barrel is modified by permanently attaching an extension such that the barrel length is at least 18 inches and the overall length of the weapon is at least 26 inches, the modified
firearm is not subject to the NFA. NOTE: an acceptable method for permanently installing a barrel extension is by gas or electric steel seam welding or the use of high temperature silver solder having a
flow point of 1100 degrees Fahrenheit."

rufe-snow

Your post has got me somewhat confused? You had stated previously that the overall length was 24 1/2". Don't see how this would be acceptable to the feds, if the required length per the NFA regs is 26".

Bill DeShivs

Any shotgun action without a barrel is legal, pistol grip or stock. Overall length only comes into play when a barrel is installed or posessed.

davidefs

Rufe, the overall length without the stock is 24-1/2". I measured it that way because you earlier said it must be more than 26" with or without the *folding* stock. With the stock it is about 36" and the regs don't say anything about the stock being removable. It is not foldable, but screwed on; technically like any stock that could be removed with the proper tools even though it is wire and therefore appears to be less fixed than the rest of the gun.

Bill, the gun does have a barrel and there is no intention toward removing it. The regs say an NFA gun can be modified to have a barrel of at least 18" (this one is modified to 19-1/2") and if also overall more than 26" (this one is 36" with the stock), then it is no longer an NFA firearm.

Again though, I will defer to the ATF and legal counsel before making a final decision since I haven't read every word everywhere about the government's distinction between "removeable" and "easily removeable" or whatever goofiness they may have come up with. Thank you all again for your interest and help.