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Win 1886 w/ Browning marking
pdog72
Member Posts: 78 ✭✭
I have a question on a Winchester 1886 lightweight 33wcf of mine. On the barrel, just ahead of the rear sight it has "Browning Bros Co Ogden U" stamped in very small letters. It's very easy to miss, unless you have good light. I'm aware that this gun is one of many Browning designs, but I've never seen this marking on any other Winchesters I've looked at or owned. Has anyone else found this before, or do you know why it has this marking? I believe it has a DOM around 1911. This particular rifle can't be lettered through the Cody museum, unfortunately. All other markings and proofmarks look normal.
Comments
Bert is probably drinking good beer and ushering in the new year. He'll be along tomorrow with an answer.
If I'm not right, I think I'm pretty close.
W.D.
W.D. is almost right on the button.
Your Model 1886 was originally shipped to the Browning Brothers shop in Odgen Utah, and the marking you are referring to was placed on the barrel before it was sold out of their shop.
To back up in history just a bit, John M. Browning and his brothers began a 19-year association with Winchester in December of 1883 when T.G. Bennett (who was Oliver Winchester's son-in-law) agreed to purchase the patent rights for what was to become the Model 1885 Single Shot. John Browning was granted his first firearm patent on October 7th, 1879 (the Browning Single Shot Rifle). Winchester stumbled upon and recognized the genius of his design in 1883, and they agreed to purchase it from John Browning for the princely sum of $8,000. $1,000 was paid upfront in cash, with the remaining $7,000 balance paid in merchandise... at that time, the Model 1885 rifle. Winchester manufactured them, and they shipped a quantity of them to Browning in payment. The rifles the Browning Brothers received were originally marked "BROWNING BROS. ODGEN U.T.", as Utah was still a "territory". The money and guns received from Winchester allowed John Browning to do what he wanted most to do... design firearms verus manufacture them. Very shortly after Winchester began production of the Model 1885, John Browning presented them with a new patent... for what became the Model 1886. T.G. Bennett again agreed to pay him a small amount of cash upfront, with the remainder to be paid off in completed guns that the Browning Brothers could sell out of their Odgen shop. This same process continued on for each new design that John Browning invented (the Model 1887, 1890, 1893, 1894, 1895, and 1900). Winchester continued to give him a small percentage in cash, with the remainder to be paid off in completed guns.
In the year 1896, Utah became a new State vice being a territory. At that time, the Browning Brothers changed the barrel stamp to read "BROWNING BROS. CO. ODGEN U.". Shortly after the year 1900, the Browning Brothers opened a second shop in Salt Lake, and a new stamp was made that read "BROWNING BROS. CO. SALT LAKE, U.". That marking is by far the rarest of the three.
In late 1901, Winchester make its single biggest mistake. T.G. Bennett was the President of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company at that time, and he had been dealing with John M. Browning for many years, but he made a very fatal mistake. John Browning had been working on (and patented) several semi-auto and a full auto firearm (mostly pistols, which he sold to Colt and F.N.). In late 1900, he perfected a self-loading shotgun, and he took it to Bennett with the full expectation that Winchester would be happy to embrace his newest creation, and pay him handsomely for it. In fact, John Browning was so sure that his newest design would rewrite the history books, he asked for small piece of the profit on every single gun made instead of the usual cash upfront and the majority of the pay-off at a later date. T.G. Bennett did not have the forsight to recognize the genius of what he was presented with, and he bluntly told John Browning that he (Winchester) was not interested in the new design, and that the American shooting public would not embrace an auto-loading shotgun... Bennett was DEAD WRONG... John Browning took his design overseas to a very greatful F.N., and the rest is history... The Auto-5 Shotgun was born, and it would reign supreme for decades. Winchester attempted to get back into the game with the ill conceived Model 1911, but it was a total failure, and it was the very first Winchester model that they lost money on (Winchester tried to hang on to it, but after 14-years and more that (50) design changes, it was discontinued as a total failure).
Back to your rifle, I would be really shocked if it really is a 1911 vintage gun. What is the serial number?
BTW, I own three Winchesters with the Browning Bros. marking on them (a Model 1873 and two Model 1885s), and I am personally acquainted with a collector that has nearly (400) Browning Bros. marked firearms in his collection. The marking adds a small premium to the value, as it positively identifies where the gun was orginally shipped.
Once again, thank you for the very extensive and interesting response. Considering I could'nt get a serial # search done through the CFM, I just went by the dates in my reference books, which I assumed might not be accurate. Even though we can't get records for this rifle, would this one fall into the range of S/N's the polishing room books covers? The serial # is 150418 A. Also, does the "A" have any significance? The only other oddity is the crescent butt, which is either special order, or more likely was a replacement for the shotgun butt it should have had.
My understanding, (from what I have read) was the 1886 33 wcf lightweight came with the hard rubber shotgun butt as standard. Also, do you have any other way of narrowing down the DOM on this rifle, or is it just a mystery? I was just using the "Madis" date.
All that can be said with any certainty is that your Model 1886 was manufactured sometime between early 1903 (when the 33 W.C.F. was introduced) and early 1919 (when the upper tang was marked "MODEL 86").
I would not call the crescent butt plate an oddity, as it was standard in the time frame your rifle was manufactured.
My understanding, (from what I have read) was the 1886 33 wcf lightweight came with the hard rubber shotgun butt as standard. Also, do you have any other way of narrowing down the DOM on this rifle, or is it just a mystery? I was just using the "Madis" date.
There never was such a thing as a "Lightweight" Model 1886. Collectors are the only source that have ever referred to the 33 W.C.F. rifles as a "Lightweight". Collectors associate the 24-inch standard length barrel as "lightweight" due to it being 2-inches shorter than the standard Sporting Rifle in all other Model 1886 calibers. Winchester did manufacture (and catalogue) an "Extra Lightweight" Model 1886, but it was made with a rapid taper 22-inch barrel only, and it was catalogued in 45-70 only (though a small numnber were made in other calibers, including the 33 W.C.F.).
Winchester catalogued the 33 W.C.F. rifles simply as the ".33 Caliber Rifle, Model 1886". They were listed with a hard rubber butt plate, but the steel crescent butt plate was always a no cost option, as it was still the standard butt plate on all other calibers in the Sporting Rifle configuration. Over the years, I have seen a fair number of original .33 W.C.F. rifles with steel crescent butt plates.
As of this time, there is no definable way to put a closer DOM on your rifle (at least that I am aware of).
Thanks Bert, and Happy New Year