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One for the '03 Springfield guys

dcinffxvadcinffxva Member Posts: 2,830 ✭✭
edited April 2011 in Ask the Experts
I'm looking at an early 1903 Springfield (10,000 serial range, 05 barrel). The rifle appears to be in great condition, but it was a WWII refinish, and was parkerized. How bad does that hurt the value, and what would be a fair price ?
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Comments

  • Emmett DunhamEmmett Dunham Member Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think this rifle is in the range of serial numbers that the receivers were not heat treated properly. I would think this could be a wall hanger or a parts rifle.

    Emmett
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  • GarthGarth Member Posts: 381 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You are correct Em m mett Dun ham! LOL! Personally I wouldn't risk the serious injury due to the shrapnelizing potential of its receiver while shooting the weapon. It would ruin any persons day really fast! I have seen a few of the early 03's converted to 22 swift, 318 bee and 22-250s! Its a lot of work but the potential is there! Before attempting, consult a reputeable gunsmith!
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  • dcinffxvadcinffxva Member Posts: 2,830 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I knew it was in the "don't shoot" range. I was interested in it more as a collector piece than a shooter.

    It's a little newer than most of my stuff [:D]
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  • nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's not a "collector", & it's not a "shooter".

    To answer your question directly, it's worth the sum of the parts. Since you did not post a photo or describe the parts, the dollar value of the gun is presumed to be "zero".

    If I owned the rifle & you expressed interest, I'd give it to you.

    Neal
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  • moretoysmoretoys Member Posts: 389 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't have any input on pricing of an 03, but I would like more info on weak receivers. My understanding was anything under 800,000 was in the NON heat treated group. Does this make them totally unshootable, or are factory rounds acceptable? I was always told not to shoot "hot" hand loads through mine, but never heard it would self destruct. I still have my first deer rifle, #730xxx
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  • 11b6r11b6r Member Posts: 16,584 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I make NO CLAIM to expertise on 1903 rifles- this is a C&P from the Civilian Marksmanship Program page on 1903 rifles:

    *WARNING ON "LOW-NUMBER" SPRINGFIELDS
    M1903 rifles made before February 1918 utilized receivers and bolts which were single heat-treated by a method that rendered some of them brittle and liable to fracture when fired, exposing the shooter to a risk of serious injury. It proved impossible to determine, without destructive testing, which receivers and bolts were so affected and therefore potentially dangerous.

    To solve this problem, the Ordnance Department commenced double heat treatment of receivers and bolts. This was commenced at Springfield Armory at approximately serial number 800,000, and at Rock Island Arsenal at exactly serial number 285,507. All Springfields made after this change are commonly called "high number" rifles. Those Springfields made before this change are commonly called "low-number" rifles.

    In view of the safety risk the Ordnance Department withdrew from active service all "low-number" Springfields. During WWII, however, the urgent need for rifles resulted in the rebuilding and reissuing of many "low-number" as well as "high-number" Springfields. The bolts from such rifles were often mixed during rebuilding, and did not necessarily remain with the original receiver.

    Generally speaking, "low number" bolts can be distinguished from "high-number" bolts by the angle at which the bolt handle is bent down. All "low number" bolts have the bolt handle bent straight down, perpendicular to the axis of the bolt body. High number bolts have "swept-back" (or slightly rearward curved) bolt handles.

    A few straight-bent bolts are of the double heat-treat type, but these are not easily identified, and until positively proved otherwise ANY straight-bent bolt should be assumed to be "low number". All original swept-back bolts are definitely "high number". In addition, any bolt marked "N.S." (for nickel steel) can be safely regarded as "high number" if obtained directly from CMP (beware of re-marked fakes).

    CMP DOES NOT RECOMMEND FIRING ANY SPRINGFIELD RIFLE WITH A "LOW NUMBER" RECEIVER. Such rifles should be regarded as collector's items, not "shooters".

    CMP ALSO DOES NOT RECOMMEND FIRING ANY SPRINGFIELD RIFLE, REGARDLESS OF SERIAL NUMBER, WITH A SINGLE HEAT-TREATed "LOW NUMBER" BOLT. SUCH BOLTS, WHILE HISTORICALLY CORRECT FOR DISPLAY WITH A RIFLE OF WWI OR EARLIER VINTAGE, MAY BE DANGEROUS TO USE FOR SHOOTING.

    THE UNITED STATES ARMY GENERALLY DID NOT SERIALIZE BOLTS. DO NOT RELY ON ANY SERIAL NUMBER APPEARING ON A BOLT TO DETERMINE WHETHER SUCH BOLT IS "HIGH NUMBER" OR "LOW NUMBER".

    Anyone that disagrees with this can register that with the CMP- they wrote it, not me.
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  • HerschelHerschel Member Posts: 2,035 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The danger of firing the low number 1903 rifles usually brings up strong opinions on either side of the issue. The US Govt rebuilt and/or rebarreld thousands of low number receivers during WWII. There is no doubt there is greater risk of a low number receiver failing than there is of a high number. Nevertheless, many low numbers were sporterized and are still being shot. I ride a motorcycle which is probably much more dangerous than shooting a low number Springfield.
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  • moretoysmoretoys Member Posts: 389 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    11b6r, interesting bit of information, thanks. Sort of burst my bubble for rehabilitating my old 06. Guess I will have a Boyd's lam stock listed soon.
    DCINFF sorry for stealing your thread, I don't believe you ever did get your questions answered.
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  • Emmett DunhamEmmett Dunham Member Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Part of the WWII story was left out the most important part. The services knew that there was a danger that the rifle could potential blow up in the face of the soldiers using them. The reason they went ahead and used them was that they did not have enough weapons to arm the new Army and were willing to take the chance of people being harmed. So go ahead and shoot one the chances that one is going to blow up in your face has not changed.

    Emmett
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  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Heat treatment restoration of dangerous Springfields by double heat treatment is bunk.
    An unknown number of the early Springfield actions were burned in heat treatment ovens by cooking them too long at elevated temperatures. This cannot be remedied by further heat treating.
    Burning of steel is a term meaning carbon now surrounds the grain boundaries making the steel weak and subject to fracture.
    It was determined during Army lab experiments that the good, unburnt steel actions couldn't be separated from the bad by test or inspection.
    As a consequence, it was recommended to the War Department that the whole of that suspect group of rifles be destroyed.
    As WW2 was looming on the horizon, these rifles were not destroyed as recommended but were stored as war emergency materiel.
    These 1903's being sold are the suspect rifles.
    Do you feel lucky ? Well do you?
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