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Best .38+P snub round? (was 357 4" bbl, cont'd)
beantownshootah
Member Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭
Sorry to revamp this, but the topic got locked before I could correct the error I made in the last post, where I said the highest powered .38+Ps could get 275 ft-lbs from a snubnose.
>>Clarentavious
>>Did you even read that article? The
>>280 foot pounds was from the 6 inch
>>barrel, not the 2 inch. Check before posting.
>>Don't mean to be rude, but try again.
You're right. I misquoted from the article, my mistake. Since you mention it and said you hadn't seen figures listing more than 220 ft-lbs from a snubby .38, I will try again:
Buffalo Bore makes two factory loads it claims clock in at 300 and 350 foot pounds from a two inch Smith snubnose .38+P staying within SAAMI pressure specs:
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#38spl
This company lives on its reputation, and I do actually believe their numbers. (Ditto for CorBon).
If you want to push your luck, the Corbon 115gr .38+P+ load is clocked at over 1100 fps from a 2 inch barrel and the 158gr +P+ load at 950 fps from a 2" barrel each for over 300 foot pounds. To be sure, these kind of loads are near-magnum loads in a .38 case and are probably NOT safe to use in most non-magnum rated guns. I don't think these are still in production anyway.
If you look at current production ammo Corbon claims 1250fps/380 ft-lbs for their 110gr 38+P and 1125 fps/351 ft-lbs for the 125gr 38+P from a full length barrel. (I've shot the 125 grainers from my airweight and I can tell you they are pretty snappy!).
Corbon also claims 1400 fps/435 foot pounds from their 100gr .38+P Pow-R-ball in a full sized gun. (The "trick" is that the light bullet gives higher velocities with exponentially higher energies, since kinetic energy is proportionate to the square of the velocity).
http://www.corbon.com/
Now, I don't have the corresponding ballistics numbers for the above rounds for a snubnose but its a pretty safe bet that each of them (and especially the Pow-r-ball) would generate 275 (or more) ft-lbs from a 2 inch snubnose while staying within SAAMI specs.
>>Clarentavious
>>Did you even read that article? The
>>280 foot pounds was from the 6 inch
>>barrel, not the 2 inch. Check before posting.
>>Don't mean to be rude, but try again.
You're right. I misquoted from the article, my mistake. Since you mention it and said you hadn't seen figures listing more than 220 ft-lbs from a snubby .38, I will try again:
Buffalo Bore makes two factory loads it claims clock in at 300 and 350 foot pounds from a two inch Smith snubnose .38+P staying within SAAMI pressure specs:
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#38spl
This company lives on its reputation, and I do actually believe their numbers. (Ditto for CorBon).
If you want to push your luck, the Corbon 115gr .38+P+ load is clocked at over 1100 fps from a 2 inch barrel and the 158gr +P+ load at 950 fps from a 2" barrel each for over 300 foot pounds. To be sure, these kind of loads are near-magnum loads in a .38 case and are probably NOT safe to use in most non-magnum rated guns. I don't think these are still in production anyway.
If you look at current production ammo Corbon claims 1250fps/380 ft-lbs for their 110gr 38+P and 1125 fps/351 ft-lbs for the 125gr 38+P from a full length barrel. (I've shot the 125 grainers from my airweight and I can tell you they are pretty snappy!).
Corbon also claims 1400 fps/435 foot pounds from their 100gr .38+P Pow-R-ball in a full sized gun. (The "trick" is that the light bullet gives higher velocities with exponentially higher energies, since kinetic energy is proportionate to the square of the velocity).
http://www.corbon.com/
Now, I don't have the corresponding ballistics numbers for the above rounds for a snubnose but its a pretty safe bet that each of them (and especially the Pow-r-ball) would generate 275 (or more) ft-lbs from a 2 inch snubnose while staying within SAAMI specs.
Comments
Now with Corbon... They claim their trick is using special blended powders that burn faster as they are traveling through the bore, but not within the shell case itself. It's kind of a controversial thing with the way the powder burns. That it produces more pressure in the bore than at the base of the shell. I don't know if it is the Copper Crusher or the Transducer pressure level.
CIP specs on pressure differ a little bit from SAAMI's I'm not really an expert on the matter. Hell, I don't even reload myself because I don't have the time or space - and I don't shoot enough to make that in order to justify the cost (I buy the cheap stuff from Wal Mart...) But I do know alot of master reloaders and gunsmiths.
357's can take over 38 +p+ anyhow. An employee of my dealer said he doesn't advise Corbon because they are too hot, and he has seen them damage guns. I actually load them in my Kel Tec because of their energy rating. But I've only shot a few of them through the gun because I don't want to risk damaging it. Most owners manuals will say their guns will accept +p's (even if they aren't rated for it) as long as you don't shoot very many of them.
It really depends. But one good example is this... What if you get attacked by a huge overweight man? Say, someone who stands 5 feet and 6 inches tall, and weighs 400 pounds? That bullet is going to have to cut through alot of fat before it reaches any vital organs. So in this case you're going to need the increased energy - especially if you are using hollow points that expand rapidly. This could be a case of insufficient penetration.
There's also going to be a very mild difference between a 2 and 2.5" barrel. Again, depending on the design of the gun (a Smith may release less gas where the cylinder meets the barrel as opposed to a Taurus). This could be as much as 50 pounds.
I think if you're going to go with a really short snub nose, you're better safe than sorry. Yeah, you may hurt your hand, and your ears may be ringing afterwards. Heck, you may even hit yourself in the head with the front sight - but at least you'll be alive. But the increased energy may save your life. Or the super loud and bright bark from the shot may scare attacker into submission - something a weaker muzzle blast from a 38 may not.
Just my opinion.
357's can take over 38 +p+ anyhow.
Of course, as mentioned above, +P+ is basically a low-loaded .357 magnum in a .38 case. As you say I've also heard stories of the older +P+ rounds cracking forcing cones, stretching alloy frames, and knocking guns out of time.
But to be clear, both Corbon and Buffalo Bore claim that their 300+ ft-lb rounds are within SAAMI spec pressures for .38+P (not +P+). Corbon doesn't make +P+ anymore, so this shouldn't be an issue anymore.
quote:
An employee of my dealer said he doesn't advise Corbon because they are too hot, and he has seen them damage guns. I actually load them in my Kel Tec because of their energy rating. But I've only shot a few of them through the gun because I don't want to risk damaging it. Most owners manuals will say their guns will accept +p's (even if they aren't rated for it) as long as you don't shoot very many of them.
I'd be pretty suprised to hear that the standard Corbon +P (as opposed to +P+) damaged +P rated guns (as opposed to the older guns, which really are weaker).
I've run at least a box of 125 grain Corbon +Ps through my airweight gun. Its not tons of them, but the gun certainly seems no worse the wear for it, and I wouldn't hesitate to put more through. I also know that people have tried the "torture test" of firing hundreds and thousands of +P rounds from these newer alloy frames, and they hold up. Again, I wouldn't do +P+ from a 38 gun, but those could make a good choice out of a .357 rated gun.
In terms of relative pressures, the truth is, +P rounds really aren't ALL that much hotter than standard ones. SAAMI specs are 17000 CUP for 38 special and 20000 for 38+P. In comparison, 357 magnum is rated at 35000 CUP (which incidentally is the same pressure rating as 9mm luger. . .a round that still generally outperforms .38+P). The Corbon +P+ rounds clocked in (supposedly) at 26000 CUP, which really is midway inbetween 38 special and 357 magnum.
It really depends. But one good example is this... What if you get attacked by a huge overweight man? Say, someone who stands 5 feet and 6 inches tall, and weighs 400 pounds?
If he already has a gun trained on me, I'm not drawing (no matter what caliber I have hidden away). If not, what's he going to do, lard me to death?
People that grossly fat can usually not even climb a few flights of stairs. If I could stop laughing, I'd simply run away. . .and I probably wouldn't have to run all that fast to get away, either!
Also no matter how fat or muscled the body, the head and neck aren't "armored".
quote:
There's also going to be a very mild difference between a 2 and 2.5" barrel. Again, depending on the design of the gun (a Smith may release less gas where the cylinder meets the barrel as opposed to a Taurus). This could be as much as 50 pounds.
[/quote]
The figure I've seen is 50fps velocity per inch of barrel for a .38 type revolver. For a .38 round that translates into less than 50 ft-lbs energy per inch of barrel, and even less of a difference for 2-1/2 vs 1-7/8 inch barrels.
In terms of individual revolvers, yes, cylinder gap diameter makes a difference, but its going to be proportionately the same no matter what kind of ammo you use in a given gun, and unless you have a Dan Wesson where the cylinder gap is adjustable, its not something that you can easily alter anyway. The point is you aren't going to pick your ammo based on cylinder gap, though if you had a bunch of similar revolvers, all else being equal you might pick the most "efficient" one.
quote:
I think if you're going to go with a really short snub nose, you're better safe than sorry. Yeah, you may hurt your hand, and your ears may be ringing afterwards. Heck, you may even hit yourself in the head with the front sight - but at least you'll be alive. But the increased energy may save your life. Or the super loud and bright bark from the shot may scare attacker into submission - something a weaker muzzle blast from a 38 may not.
[/quote]
I take the opposite approach. I think the ability to get faster followup shots with increased confidence per shot makes up for decreased power per shot.
Bullet placement is FAR more important than caliber type. Most confrontations are going to be at point blank range, literally within a few feet. Most important is making sure you put a bullet (not necessarily the most powerful one) in the right place.
One shot from a 357 magnum snub (especially in low light) and you are going to be temporarily blind (and deaf). Not a good place to be when your life is on the line. What if your first shot isn't enough to finish the job? The hard snap, flash, and bang are going to mean much longer recovery time after a shot to get the next one out. That time is something you may not have a lot of in a life-or-death crisis.
In fact, I would bet that you can get (say) 1000 foot-pounds ON TARGET faster with a .38 than with a .357, and the difference is going to be more pronounced dumping (say) 1250 ft-lbs from each.
Presumeably you are shooting someone who poses an imminent threat to your life. They may be angry or on drugs. I don't think a difference in volume or flash is really going to change anything. If they don't reconsider after getting shot at once they probably wouldn't be stopping if the shot were a little brighter or louder.