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5.45x39 caliber, need some info...
Cubslover
Member Posts: 18,601 ✭✭
Aim has a WASR2 with 2- 30rd mags in this caliber for $290 and 1080rds for $130. Is this a pretty high surplus round? What are your opinions on the caliber itself? I know it was used in the Aks74. What else can you tell me?
Half of the lives they tell about me aren't true.
Comments
Technical stuff:
Bullet Diameter = .221"
Bullet Weight = ~53 grains (VLD)
Muzzle Velocity = 2950 FPS.
Muzzle Energy = 960 Ft/Lbs.
The sectioned bullet doesn't look too unusual but its construction is a little different. It is an FMJ design but the core is soft steel seated over a small slug of lead in the boattail. Combine this with the airspace at the very tip and you get what amounts to 'yaw' during flight and major instability after minimal 3.5" penetration. There is no fragmentation of the bullet like there is with the 5.56 x 45.
The cases are non-reloadable and use RWS Berdan small pistol primers. Unbeknownst to most, the case is NOT derived from the 7.62 x 39 case. It is smaller in rim and base diameter being 0.394" for both as opposed to 0.445" for the 7.62 x 39. There are some instructions in the link below for making your own brass cases for reloading.
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ak47ak74/reloading.htm
The East Germans (before the wall came down) manufactured the SSG-82 bolt action sniper rifle which utilized the 5.45 x 39 cartridge. Don't get excited, this was a poorly designed and executed rifle with numerous faults and failures.
I know lots of the members are looking for another Mil-Surp cartridge to use for banging around but this is not the one to get involved with in my opinion. Bullets are basically unavailable although if motivated enough you could use .224" bullets by swaging them down.
Best.
Thanks again!
Welcome to the GB forums!
Just to set the record straight, it's "nononsense". Your rendition is cute but unacceptable. Please use the correct spelling.
You and the writers at SOF are certainly entitled to your own opinions as to the quality and accuracy of your rifle. But since SOF accepts advertising like all the rest of the gun rags, I see little reason to accept their assessment as opposed to mine and several others first hand experiences.
My experiences and those of 6 other target shooters are extremely divergent from yours. We all got these rifles when they were first brought into this country in order to try something different. We paid a good price for the rifle with a scope and got a case of ammunition. Since we are all wildcatters, there was no hesitation in getting something as odd as this cartridge.
All seven were inaccurate based on our assessments and those in the two article summations below. I own a 22PPC that routinely will hold 0.300"/ 5-shot groups from my custom varmint rifle which when combined with a heavier and better bullet delivers more energy on target than the 5.45 ever could. I have no use for an oddball bullet diameter or steel cases in a rifle that is shoddily built by the East Germans. That's as simple as I can put it.
The Russian 5.45x39mm bullet has a hollow space in the tip to make it unstable. It isn't a hollow point because the bullet jacket fully encloses the tip (FMJ). The reason they designed it this way was to make it unstable so that it would tumble on impact. The problem is that this design also makes the bullet slightly unstable in flight with an induced yaw. It does not help accuracy. The tumbling is to enhance the size of the wound channel and results in greater damage in soft tissue. This hollow space will cause the bullet to yaw (yes, in the air too) quickly and change directing in soft tissue even when shot at longer distances while losing velocity. This air space, when not correctly balanced by shifting the center of gravity, will demonstrate a decide lack of accuracy especially when compared to commercial U.S. target ammunition in other cartridges. I am aware of the disparity of the comparison between the bullet types but I am more interested in accuracy than cheap Mil-Surp ammunition that's inaccurate.
Several countries use this same design concept. At one time RWS manufactured some ammunition that exhibited better accuracy. Wolf made some soft point ammunition also but I haven't paid any attention to this cartridge for a long time so I can't say for sure what's out there right now and I don't care.
Most of owners that I have had any contact with, report broken extractors from sticking a steel case in the chamber. Gunsmiths can usually make a new one and the owners can continue to use these rifles.
So, we can agree to disagree as far as I'm concerned and go on about our respective businesses hopefully better for this exchange.
Best.
SSG-82 Sniper Rifle (East German)
The gun has been extensively tested by German gun magazines after it hit the surplus market, and reviews were not very positive. This is a two-part summary from each of two German firearms magazine reviews:
Michael Benstein:
Das wohlgehuetete Geheimnis. Scharfschuetzengewehr SSG 82, Kal. 5,45 x 39,
in: DWJ 2/1993, pp. 230-233, 4 ills.
Short article explains former designation and use (anti-terror units of the MfS in airport service), some technical details (rear-locking turnbolt action with four lugs, hammer-forged barrel), trigger is known for breaking off easily in service (as a former GDR sniper told the author);
group sizes at 100 metres (bench-rested, 4x32 factory-installed scope):
12 cms(4.72") with Russian military ammo, 7,5(2.95") and 4 cms(1.57") with GDR issue ammo of Koenigswartha manufacture (mercury fulminate primers, as usual with GDR small arms cartridges).
_______________________________________________________________________
Hartmut Mrosek:
Letzte Rettung,
in: Visier 3/1994, pp. 98-101, 7 ills.
More extensive report than the former. Rifle is described as "not exactly a masterpiece of Suhl gunsmithing". Ancestor is said to be the smallbore match rifle Mod. 150. Scope adjustment is difficult and un-reproduceable for lack of any marking or click notches on the scope adjustment rings. Half rotation of vertical adjustment ring lifted point of impact at 17 cms at 100 metres.
No provision for scope pre-adjustment at different distances; police sniping use is therefore described as "an irresponsible hazard, unless the perpetrators choose to move at a constant distance which also coincides with the sighting-in distance".
Magazine catch protudes too far from stock bottom; was already activated when setting the rifle on a sand bag. Risk of magazine loss in combat use would be even higher. Front part of stock too narrow and too high, not favourable for shooting from a rested position. Safety only locks the trigger.
Original issue ammo showed remarkable vertical spreading
and signs of varying pressure: 45 to 70 millimetres (1.77" to 2.75") for five-shot groups at 100 metres.
Striker protusion 1,3 mm from bolt face - too much, allegedly, for soft
pistol primers (pierced primers observed). Extractor finicky, a lot of difficulties, ejector too weak, steel cases clung to chamber. Receiver port almost too small for ejecting a live cartridge without problems; cartridges had to be "shaken out" on occasions.
Berdan-primed East German steel cases were described as reloadable with RWS pistol (!) primers No. 5005 (only ?? A.E.). These were a bit thin and soft for rifle loads, especially considering the firing pin protusion. "Original diameter" bullets would only be the light-
weight 40 grains pills for the .22 Jet. Twist length: 195 mm (1:7.68").
Overall assessment of the article: rifle for collectors and experimenting reloaders. As a military or police sniper rifle, however, it must be classified as much inferior to comparable guns in repect of technical design, field performance and ammo acceptance.
Hope these summaries were of some use for some of you.
Best regards,
Alexander Eichener
c96@ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de
Sorry about the handle error. I was focused on the statements you made and I, gasp made a mistake - a typo, (that's an attempt at humor).
For the record, I own the rifle, so this is first person info too. And I have friends who own this rifle, (one buyer was a Gunsmith from New Zealand who bought two of em) plus two of my relatives own them too. We haven't encountered the breakages mentioned - yet. I think I stated that the rifle had shortcomings as a military sniper rifle and that it is more of a target rifle - a sometimes finicky one. It's made with a target type stock, cold hammer forged free floated barrel, a crowned muzzle, and a HAIR Trigger! I understand the rifles were built in East Germany for the STASI as a mid range sniper rifle to pick off people as they were attempting to go over the wall, (Quality - what do you expect from a bunch of Commies?).
I'm not going to get into a whizzing contest with you over the credibility of the writers at SOF and Fighting Firearms magazines. Yet, you quote from a source that is favorable to your point of view, hmmm? I'll let you have your prejudices, if you let me have mine - - -
As for the bullet construction, I took the time to reference what still is today the best analysis on this bullet construction and its wounding effect. Thanks for the photo, though the Russian military ball ammo has a lead deposit/filler above the mild steel core, leaving a small open area under the jackets tip.
I'm glad we are in agreement, now, that the bullet doesn't "yaw" in flight. I was an AF mechanic and I worked on the Hi-Lift section of the F-111-A, (variable geometry - swing wing) aircraft - we had to know a "little bit" about aerodynamics & weight & balance, (the B-1-A Bomber that crashed, did so because the flight crew forgot to manually transfer fuel before going to delta). Oh, and fighter pilots often yaw aircraft to "scrub off" speed, (for those not familiar with this tatic - see the Military or History Channel).
I'm not sure if you keep up with this kind of stuff but the US military recently got the green light to use Match Grade ammo in their sniper rifles. This had been prevented in the past because some Lawyer said their use violated war conventions by using hollow point ammo. As you know the little "pin hole" in M/G ammo is for pushing the bullet out of - for a lack of a better term - "mold". It is a side effect of the process and not a true hollow point construction. The RWS 5.45x39mm rounds that I'm looking at now have the pin hole at the tip of the bullet.
Anyway, we purchased the rifles and a bunch of RWS ammo for a sweet sum! I love the rifle we love it. However, no way can it compete with the hardware you and your friends are shooting!
A good discussion. Thanx, Mike
Poor design? This rifle had a lot of features found only on Target Rifles. The fact these rifles were designed and built in a Communist country, for a specific military/political task says a lot. Hey the AK's are cheap guns with lousy safeties - that are LOUD when disengaged - - - it's still a better combat rifle than - - - but I digress.
As for hammer forged barrel making - uh maybe you ought to do some more research, it's nothing new. Ruger makes their 10/22 "T" with a hammer forged barrel. Last time I checked it has met with great success. Here's a review: "In 1996, Ruger introduced the 10/22T version if their ever popular carbine. Marketed as a target rifle, the T featured such niceties as a hammer forged heavy contour barrel" http://www.gunsmoke.com/guns/1022/10_22_targets.html
I guess all gun writers of magazine articles are suspect because they write for magazines and the like? As for the SSG 82's accuracy, I quoted and not merely stated from the "Fighting Firearms" article. I also gave the pub date - so that anyone could look it up. Hey, I like this rifle don't bad mouth it. Ha, ha
Too bad you and "nononsense" got rid of your SSG 82's. I have folders for each of my firearms that I collect. I'm looking at sale tickets for two of them that were sold on the Internet. I copied & printed them out. I did this to show my aunt and uncle what a good investment they made. One went for $2,400.00, and another went for $2,490.00, (this sale was dated 7/15/2003). Not bad for a "poor design"! I'm not going to say what we paid for our rifles but I'm sure it was a lot less than you guys paid, (we also got a 1,000 rounds of RWS Match Grade ammo thrown in for free). They are relics of the Cold War and unique. They were produced in very limited numbers. Some collectors are willing to pay a lot of money for them, for what they symbolized. They are truly a piece of history. Besides, they look cool too.
So we deviated from the original topic, at least I did. That said I'm very pleased with my SSG 82 with its lethal and accurate 5.45x39mm cartridge. I wouldn't part with it, it's now a family heirloom.
This blogging thing is FUN! Mike
When I worked for DoD as a QA Rep, one of our contractors manufactured self sealing fuel cells. They had to make a "mock up" of an air frame with aluminum skin for proof of production testing. It was filled with JP 4 or 5, (those were the standard fuels used at the time). One of the gun fire test requirements was to simulate the tumbling of rounds, to make a "key hole" in the cell. To qualify the self sealing of the fuel cell it had to stop leaking in a designated time frame. The way the contractor made this tumbling effect was to make a cut at the end of one of the test gun/cannon barrels muzzle to cause this effect. So maybe it wasn't only the ammo you two were using that caused this? It could have been a combination of things - who was the manufacturer of the ammo, it could have been defective and dumped on the surplus market? Yugo, wasn't that a make of a car? I also have a Red Chinese SKS, it doesn't compare to the ChiCom .308 Dragunov I have - and IT isn't anything to write home about. But I bought it right, makes a nice shooter in my collection - again, for what I paid for it.