Spontaneous combustion of cartridges

ggb3

Hey y'all:
Hope the New Year has been good to all. I have been going back and forth about keeping ammo in the safe. It is a fire and security safe and well rated. However, I was wondering if anyone knew what temp shells, cartridges, etc. explode at? If it got reasonably hot (<400 degrees) the guns may be fine. But, if a bunch of ammo is going off.........

Thanks in advance,
George

Tailgunner1954

Loose ammo (and smokeless powder) in a fire is no danger to property or life. It only becomes a issue when it is confined IE in a guns chamber or a tightly sealed container. The brass case will fly further than the bullet does, but won't punch through a 1/2" piece of drywall or a firemans turnout coat.
Old school lockers work great for storing ammo, as they are lockable to keep children out but yet vented in case of fire.

nmyers

I have researched the NIST electronic data base, but have been unable to find any scientific studies of the subject. While I know that tests were conducted many years ago, none were repeatable lab studies.

Tailgunner is right; you have nothing to fear. Even stored without a safe or lockbox, only minor injuries from ammo "cooking off" have been reported.

There are a few things that you can do to increase your protection. Move your safe to the basement & store it against the wall; the temperature will be substantially lower than in the upper floors. (Be sure to raise the safe to prevent water damage.) Install smoke detectors (ionization AND photoelectric) on all levels. Install a household alarm system with monitoring.

Neal
Fire Inspector

EDIT: ggb, at the point where your ammo cooks off (I'm guessing 800-1,000 degrees F), all your guns will already be beyond salvage.

Tailgunner, NFPA does codes & standards, research, training, & education; this complements NIST's mission of developing measurement science, standards, & technology.

Tailgunner1954

Neal
How about the NFPA (National Fire Prevention Associan), rather than the National Institute for Standards testing ?

ggb3

I am not really concerned about them going off and hurting anyone outside the safe. What I was concerned about were the contents of the safe. The ammo going off inside the safe at a temperature that would not burn the stocks, or distemper the metal. But, the explosions of the ammo and brass shrapnel tearing up the firearms, important papers etc. Side note, them guys from that show, myth busters put ammo in a fire with different materials around it and had the results that are spoke about here.

Thank y'all,
George

MP

When I had a house fire many years ago I had two full metal ammo cans full of 30 carbine ammo in the original boxes. All rounds cooked off in both cans, the boxes swelled to let out the escaping gas, that was it.

glabray

Assuming you have a safe in order to protect items of value to you such as guns, documents, etc. why you even consider storing anything as combustible as ammo and/or gunpowder in the same safe with your valuables?

Wolf.

--
I have NEVER heard of ammunition spontaneously combusting. NEVER. I don't think it has ever occurred, even with black powder cartridges.

First of all, I agree with glabray; don't store your ammo, powder and primers in your safe with important valuables, but in a a "magazine" consisting of an inexpensive metal locker or box, bolted down if security is a problem, but securely locked with a good padlock.

When exposed to heat, say a fire, it depends on individual cartridge and the type of powder it contains to say at what exact temperature it will cook off. However, generally speaking, we don't really care, do we? Modern smokeless powder in a one-pound to about a 5-pound can will generally burn (notice I didn't say explode) after approximately 5 minutes' constant exposure to fire. How hot is a "fire"? Well inside a burning house, temperatures can exceed 2000 degrees F. I imagine a campfire can exceed 1000 degrees F. and if you set a box of .30-30 cartridges on top of the campfire, my guess is that you'd see them cook off in 2 minutes or so. I say you would "see" them cook off because there's literally no reason to get up from your seat and go hide behind a tree. They pop and whooosh and flash and that's about it. All that popping and flashing inside your safe however, sure isn't going to do all your "good stuff" much good. But then neither is the house fire. Make sure you know what fire rating (X minutes at Y temperature) your safe has. Put all your good stuff in safe boxes and keep your ammo secure separately as noted above.

Information in the previous paragraph was loosely excerpted from Hatcher's Notebook by Julian Hatcher, Major General, Retired, US Army. General Hatcher had a long and distinguished career in the area of munitions and arms and experimented extensively with munitions, weapons and their components. During that time he performed numerous experiments with powder, loaded cartridges and primers, noting the effects of fire, impact, etc. on the material.