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win M12 cycling problem

bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,866 ✭✭✭
edited January 2008 in Ask the Experts
the worlds finest shotgun is acting up on me.[:I]
seems when i cycle my 1961 20ga skeet gun, the f.a. hangs up with the bolt 1/2 cycled....if i twist the f.a. to the right as im pumping. i mean in literally stops.
if i cycle it whilst twisting to the left, no problem at all.
i need a probable cause. a good answer will be good timing, im seeing my gun doctor real soon with other jobs and i will add this to the batch. i want to aim him in the right direction, to keep him from doing exploratory surgery and screw up a nice gun. thanks!
Retired Naval Aviation
Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
Former NSSA All American
Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
MO, CT, VA.

Comments

  • riley priley p Member Posts: 217 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Forgive the obvious, but is the action slide screw cap (the metal cap on the front of the action slide) that holds the wood on, on tight?? If it's in good shape you've got some crud in the action, a jammed/broke firing pin, a jammed/ broke ejector or "issues" with the mag tube. All fixable. You are absolutely right; You've got the greatest shotgun there is!!! However finding an expert M12 mechanic is hard. I'm not calling myself an expert by any means but have learned a lot through some tough experience. I've got a small heap of M12's now, all running, thank Numrich, but many didn't start out that way. If I can get a few more details I may be able to help.
  • only winchestersonly winchesters Member Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Morning Bob: sounds like you've answered your own question, "if I twist it to the right it literally stops"!!

    If you twist the forearm as you cycle, you put a bind on the action slide rod, period. If you've done this for "years" the rod itself now may have a slight bend to it, thus causing the cycle problem.

    You have owned and shot these long enough to know if the forearm is loose. If this is on of the guns you recently put "new" wood on look at the side of the barrel for rub marks in/on the blueing from the forearm, (usually at the rear of the travel), it is possible that the wood channel isn't quite wide enough, or you didn't get it exactly centered when you put it on!

    Regards Dave
  • OleDukOleDuk Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK, ole feller, have you thought about calling Simmons Shotgun Specialties in Olathe, Kansas? They were THE m12 people in the 60's and are still active.
    Cheers,
    OleDuk[:)][:)]
  • bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,866 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    maybe im not clear. let me re-address. its a mechanical jam. metal on metal behind the bolt assy. its like the f.a. release button and the rod that brings the bolt back is up to something. its not in the front of the gun, its back in the bolt area. if you bring it back ever so slow, 1/2 way back on the bolt it stops. you stick your finger on the face of the bolt not even holding the f.a., its tight as a doornail and wont continue back. push the f.a. forward ever so slightly, and you can hear a click, then its ok. im thinking its that f.a. rod tip that engages the bolt. somehow where it is touching the bolt relaese button in the trigger, its binding. does that help any?
    ps...havent done this for years. its a new used gun purchase.
    Retired Naval Aviation
    Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
    Former NSSA All American
    Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
    MO, CT, VA.
  • only winchestersonly winchesters Member Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bob: Remove the barrel assy. from the receiver. Once it's off, gently pull back down on the forearm, so the action rod is fully extended throught receiver extention. look down the rod and see if it's still straight, (not bowed). If it is straight, again check the clearance on the side of the forearm to make sure it's not rubbing on the barrel as you cycle. Also look at the "nub" on the end of the action slide, is it burred, does it have a "wear" spot?

    If you have a spare action slide in your parts stash, (yes the rod is the same on a 12 and 20ga.) with just the spare action slide, put it into the receiver and cycle the gun. Is the problem still there?

    Dave
  • riley priley p Member Posts: 217 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    One screw and the trigger group comes right out. Maybe with a tap or two if it's been in there for a while. From there you should be able to see if the breech bolt retaining lever is hanging you up. An "exploded" schematic is on Numrich.com under Winchesters, m12. Remove the trigger group and you'll probably be able to see what's going on.
  • bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,866 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    i will do all suggested. there is no binding on the f.a. forward of the takedown. allow me to ad...
    when i close the gun up into battery empty and decide not to shoot, i just push the f.a. release button behind the trigger and while holding gun vertical, it drops as if it was butter all the way down and the bolt goes too. it should. its a pigeon grade. the problem seems to be only when fired and hammer is forward.
    after its fired, as we know, you nudge forward, click, and cycle back. its right there...1/2 way back, it stops dead. then, with a twist to the right, go back forward, listen for a 'tink', and i can see the release button doing something, then i come back, then it continues back.

    edit...with trigger out, ther is no binding or jam. it seems to be with the trigger assy in and fired that it happens.
    Retired Naval Aviation
    Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
    Former NSSA All American
    Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
    MO, CT, VA.
  • riley priley p Member Posts: 217 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK, I think I know what's up. Before I offer up bad info I"m going to go home, open up one of mine and confirm. In the mean time, you may want to pull another trigger group from another M12 if you have one and compare and contrast. Also, on the right hand side of the trigger group there is one slotted screw head showing. It is a LEFT HAND thread screw (tightens by going CCW) make sure that is tight. Last time I doctored one of these at the skeet range All it took was a tightening of the trigger group screw. If the trigger group has "drooped" a bit it doesn't shoot, eject right or do anything well. A mysterious yet wonderful instrument. If you don't have it fixed by tomorrow I'll be back in touch.
  • Old GunnyOld Gunny Member Posts: 193 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    A friend had a similar problem of sorts- he had an older (1950 era) M12 with the "dogleg" action action bar- I wonder if it could be in the retractor- the spring loaded "cam" at the top of the bolt that is closed when the bolt is "in battery" by the special milled recess into the top front of the receiver? Just a thought.
  • bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,866 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    droop was the first thing i checked. its ok. i will check that ccw screw.
    Retired Naval Aviation
    Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
    Former NSSA All American
    Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
    MO, CT, VA.
  • bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,866 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    update,
    action bar is straight as an arrow, dave.
    no binding on mag tube or wood.
    no burr on the nub that engages the bolt.
    when gun is broke in two, bolt sags in back. it does not stay in lock up. to get f.a. back on, i must push bolt up using carrier to engage action bar to bolt. then i tighten it all down.
    timing is good. bolt pops up in back when fired and wont fire with trigger pulled until f.a. is forward and bolt is up.
    Retired Naval Aviation
    Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
    Former NSSA All American
    Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
    MO, CT, VA.
  • only winchestersonly winchesters Member Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    bob: With the barrel assy. off and the back of the bolt has dropped, and doesn't stay locked up, time for a bolt job, the slide rail lock up is bad. Also with the trigger guard assy. out, cock the hammer, keep a fingger on the hammer and pull the trigger, see how the hammer works. the hammer guide rod may need to be replaced.

    Regards Dave
  • bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,866 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    the bolt droops about a 1/16th of and inch. its not a total tilt of 45 deg or something like that. it just jiggles a little in back. i was able to assemble the gun this time w/o doing the old carrier assist.
    but im going to try that bolt rebuild idea.
    any good gunsmith job or do you suggest someone special? if we get locked out, feel free to email me.
    hammers working fine.
    i redid the error. with the gun fired and clicked, i pull back the f.a..
    im doing all of this ever so gentile. its not like a full blown cycle as if i were shooting it.
    when the bolt is 1/2 way back it jams. with rearward pressure still on the f.a., i twist ever so slightly and you hear a click and the release button pops out and the cycle continues.
    its somewhere in the assy where the f.a. release button is involved with the f.a. action bar.
    Retired Naval Aviation
    Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
    Former NSSA All American
    Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
    MO, CT, VA.
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