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Winchester 1892 Saddle Ring Carbine
mudsta
Member Posts: 5 ✭✭
Hi,
(Im a first time forum user)
I am seeking some info on a Winchester 1892 Lever/ Martini action Saddle Ring Carbine that I have ended up with. I searched the net for a while and checked the serial number #558 stamped on it and found that this gun number was made in 1892. It needs a bit of restoration work but I was wondering what it may be worth in poor, good, or excellent condition?
The calibre 'looks' possibly to be .38.
The only other stamping beside the serial number on the gun are + 310 M2 - 120(or 170) and a small logo.
Can you please advise me of any more details about this firearm?
And if I should give it to a quality gunsmith to restore it?
Regards,
Mudsta
(Im a first time forum user)
I am seeking some info on a Winchester 1892 Lever/ Martini action Saddle Ring Carbine that I have ended up with. I searched the net for a while and checked the serial number #558 stamped on it and found that this gun number was made in 1892. It needs a bit of restoration work but I was wondering what it may be worth in poor, good, or excellent condition?
The calibre 'looks' possibly to be .38.
The only other stamping beside the serial number on the gun are + 310 M2 - 120(or 170) and a small logo.
Can you please advise me of any more details about this firearm?
And if I should give it to a quality gunsmith to restore it?
Regards,
Mudsta
Comments
The first thing we need to clear up is... quote:Winchester 1892 Lever/ Martini action Saddle Ring Carbine
John M. Browning would be offended by your reference to "Martini". The Model 1892 has absolutely no similarities to a Martini action, and it is a considerably better (smoother) action. It employs twin vertically sliding breech locks, and it is a very strong action.
The Model 1892 is simply a scaled down Model 1886 (which was John M. Browning's first lever-ation design and patent), and it was specifically designed to handle the shorter (pistol sized) cartridges that were chambered in the Model 1873.
With a 3-digit serial number, it most certainly is a bonafide "Antique", and it has a fair bit more collector appeal being a first year (1892) production SRC.
The caliber is .401, and it is chambered for the 38 W.C.F. (a.k.a. 38-40) cartridge.
Exactly where on the gun is it stamped "+ 310 M2 - 120(or 170)"? Wherever it is, it is highly unlikely to be original to the gun.
Without seeing detailed pictures of it, it is impossible to say what it might actually be worth, and you need to be specific about its graded condition... it can not be "poor, good, or excellent" all at the same time. If at all possible, please post several clear well lit pictures of all the markings on the gun, and both sides of the receiver frame.
In answer to your final question... quote:And if I should give it to a quality gunsmith to restore it?
Most definitely NOT That old SRC will be worth considerably more $$$$ in its current condition. Giving it to a gunsmith to restore (refinish) would severely diminish its collector appeal and value. The only thing that should be done to it, is a detailed clean-up, and it must be done by someone who is intimatley familar with antique collectable Winchesters (this rules out the vast majority of everyday gunsmiths).
Thankyou for your speedy and very helpful reply.
Firstly I would like to offer my apologies for mis-naming the action as 'martini'. I know very little about firearms in general. Sorry about that [:)]
Now....I tried to take some pics to post up but my camera only produces low resolution pics. I will try borrow a better one to show you some more detail.
To answer your question...
quote:Exactly where on the gun is it stamped "+ 310 M2 - 120(or 170)"? Wherever it is, it is highly unlikely to be original to the gun.
When looking down the rifle as if to fire it and as 12 o'clock at the top of the rifle. The lettering is stamped in the 1 or 2 o'clock position approx 2cm from where the barrel joins the reciever frame.
The serial number is stamped in the 6 o'clock position at the same distance. Both sets of letters/numbers run down not around the barrel.
With regard to its condition, I asked for a very rough value of one in poor, good or excellent condition to get some idea of what the type of gun as a whole sells for at varying quality.
Condition is as follows:
Stock has nil cracks, has very light scratches and a few small dents.
Finish appears to have no laquer or varnish ever put on it.
Timber is dulled with age and has 5 x 1cm thin droplets of white water based paint (possibly someone washed out a white paintbrush near by and flicked some on the stock)
Timber sits slightly proud at all edges when butting up to metal fittings.
The lever action lever moves only a little and has medium grade surface rust.
The hammer cocks in both positions and fires when the trigger is pulled. Both actions work smoothly and have medium grade surface rust.
The bullet entry plate works fine and has medium grade surface rust.
The saddle ring is in tact and has light - medium surface rust.
The receiver chamber has two dents at the front and has medium grade surface rust.
The exernal surface of the barrel has heavy rust (not flaking) and light to medium pitting at the bullet exit end and has medium grade rust at the receiver end. Barrel internally seems to be in good condition and appears to have been protected well, it has light surface rust.
All metal slotted screws appear to be original and two seem to have been screw driver damaged a very long time ago.
The front wooden stock is missing completely.
The sights seem to be missing completely.
The tube magazine is missing completely.
quote:Most definitely NOT That old SRC will be worth considerably more $$$$ in its current condition. Giving it to a gunsmith to restore (refinish) would severely diminish its collector appeal and value. The only thing that should be done to it, is a detailed clean-up, and it must be done by someone who is intimatley familar with antique collectable Winchesters (this rules out the vast majority of everyday gunsmiths).
Ok, I will be vary careful with it then. Since it came to me all I have done is lighly cleaned the rust away from the serial number areas with a green scotch pad. I did this only just enough to make out what it read when wiped with white chalk.
I wont be doing anything else to it.
Could you recommend a reputable gunsmith capable to clean it up in Australia?
I hope that helps and I will try get some photos up when I get a chance.
Thanks for you help to date,
Regards,
Mudsta
Please be careful so everyone here can sleep well at night![:D]
Can't wait to see some pictures.
Thanks for sharing and welcome.
edit; its also possible this was rebarreled with a martini barrel in .310. the out side profile is similar. ammo would be readily available 'down under' and it would work in the 92 action.
Bert,
Thankyou for your speedy and very helpful reply.
Firstly I would like to offer my apologies for mis-naming the action as 'martini'. I know very little about firearms in general. Sorry about that [:)]
Now....I tried to take some pics to post up but my camera only produces low resolution pics. I will try borrow a better one to show you some more detail.
To answer your question...
quote:Exactly where on the gun is it stamped "+ 310 M2 - 120(or 170)"? Wherever it is, it is highly unlikely to be original to the gun.
When looking down the rifle as if to fire it and as 12 o'clock at the top of the rifle. The lettering is stamped in the 1 or 2 o'clock position approx 2cm from where the barrel joins the reciever frame.
The serial number is stamped in the 6 o'clock position at the same distance. Both sets of letters/numbers run down not around the barrel.
With regard to its condition, I asked for a very rough value of one in poor, good or excellent condition to get some idea of what the type of gun as a whole sells for at varying quality.
Condition is as follows:
Stock has nil cracks, has very light scratches and a few small dents.
Finish appears to have no laquer or varnish ever put on it.
Timber is dulled with age and has 5 x 1cm thin droplets of white water based paint (possibly someone washed out a white paintbrush near by and flicked some on the stock)
Timber sits slightly proud at all edges when butting up to metal fittings.
The lever action lever moves only a little and has medium grade surface rust.
The hammer cocks in both positions and fires when the trigger is pulled. Both actions work smoothly and have medium grade surface rust.
The bullet entry plate works fine and has medium grade surface rust.
The saddle ring is in tact and has light - medium surface rust.
The receiver chamber has two dents at the front and has medium grade surface rust.
The exernal surface of the barrel has heavy rust (not flaking) and light to medium pitting at the bullet exit end and has medium grade rust at the receiver end. Barrel internally seems to be in good condition and appears to have been protected well, it has light surface rust.
All metal slotted screws appear to be original and two seem to have been screw driver damaged a very long time ago.
The front wooden stock is missing completely.
The sights seem to be missing completely.
The tube magazine is missing completely.
quote:Most definitely NOT That old SRC will be worth considerably more $$$$ in its current condition. Giving it to a gunsmith to restore (refinish) would severely diminish its collector appeal and value. The only thing that should be done to it, is a detailed clean-up, and it must be done by someone who is intimatley familar with antique collectable Winchesters (this rules out the vast majority of everyday gunsmiths).
Ok, I will be vary careful with it then. Since it came to me all I have done is lighly cleaned the rust away from the serial number areas with a green scotch pad. I did this only just enough to make out what it read when wiped with white chalk.
I wont be doing anything else to it.
Could you recommend a reputable gunsmith capable to clean it up in Australia?
I hope that helps and I will try get some photos up when I get a chance.
Thanks for you help to date,
Regards,
Mudsta
Hello Mudsta,
You are quite welcome, and no apology was or is necessary. I was trying to make light of the situation when I said that John M. Browning would be offended (he passed in November of 1926).
OK, on to your old SRC. The graded condition question is for the nost part answered. Unfortunately, it is quite grim. Due to the amount of rust and the missing pieces and parts, it is in NRA Antique "Poor" condition.
The next thing I noted is the location of where you state you found the serial number. If I understand you correctly, it is on the bottom of the barrel just forward of the receiver? If that is correct, it is not the serial number (most likely an assembly number). The serial number is stamped on the bottom forward edge of the receiver frame (right next to where the forend stock adjoins the receiver). The link below (third picture) shows where the serial number is located.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=101083990
Are you absolutely sure that the caliber/cartridge stamp is 38? Is it possible that it is actually "32"?
Lastly, please do not use a green scotch pad on a gun. It will damage any remaining finish. If you can find/obtain a can of Kroil, please use it to add in removing the rust. Kroil (is a superb penetrating oil), and when used with and copper or bronze wool (0000 steel wool can be used in a pinch), it will enable you to remove all of the surface rust with the minimal amount of damage to the original finish.
If you are unable to post picture here, you can send them directly to me at Win1885@msn.com.
Lastly, Australia is a very large country... can you tell me what part of Australia you are located in? I do know several Winchester collectors in Australia, and can ask them who & where they use for specialized gunsmithing.
first, welcome to the forum. as you are from 'down under' the 310m2-120 markings are probably the british proof markings when it was imported (the .310 martini cart. is very close to our .32/20 a.k.a. 32 wcf). as to the win./martini, the onlt thing they have in common is they are both lever action.
Hello Mike,
I own a few Winchesters with British proofs (and have seen many more of them), and can say with a fair amount of assurance that the markings on that old SRC are not of British origin. I also own a few Winchesters that I repatriated out of Australia, and none of them have British proof marks on them. Australia imported several hundred thousand Winchesters from the 1870s through WW I, and none of them that were shipped directly to Australia were required to be proofed.
As most of us are located in the States, we would have difficulty apprising its value or recommending a gunsmith to work on it in Australia
First up....
rufe-snow,
I took a look at the photo you posted but that is not the rifle in question. Using the link that bert suggested quote:http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=101083990
It is exactly like that model, except is has a saddle ring attached to the left hand side receiver plate.
I did notice that the text where the winchester model 1892 is stamped has a slight variation. Your pic reads 'trade mark reg in US pat off' the one here reads just 'trade mark' with the letters spaced alot furthur apart. The model 1892 and winchester lettering is exactly the same.
Now onto the important bit...
I think you guys may sleep a little easier.
quote:The next thing I noted is the location of where you state you found the serial number. If I understand you correctly, it is on the bottom of the barrel just forward of the receiver? If that is correct, it is not the serial number (most likely an assembly number). The serial number is stamped on the bottom forward edge of the receiver frame (right next to where the forend stock adjoins the receiver). The link below (third picture) shows where the serial number is located.
It turns out the numbers I thought were the serial number was possibly the assembly number. Using the link listed above I looked where the correct position is and found '445178'. and when i put these numbers into the manufacturing date program on savage99.com it came back as made in 1908! So thats a bit dissapointing, but at least you guys can sleep easier [:)]
Now...
quote:Are you absolutely sure that the caliber/cartridge stamp is 38? Is it possible that it is actually "32"? Once again going off the pics on the link listed above, there are no caliber stamp on that part of the barrel at all.
I measured the internal diameter of the barrel and it is 7.91mm or imperial .311'. Given this I would presume the stamping on the top of the barrel of 310 would be correct.
quote:Lastly, Australia is a very large country... can you tell me what part of Australia you are located in? I do know several Winchester collectors in Australia, and can ask them who & where they use for specialized gunsmithing.
Yes, I live in rural South Australia. I have an excellent gun dealer locally I will ask if he knows of any winchester antique specalists in Australia, but if you can recommend some one that would be fantastic.
I will still endevor to put some photos up later this week.
Regards,
mudsta
At this point, I suspect that the barrel on your Model 1892 is not of Winchester origin, which explains why it does not have a magazine tube or forend stock. Does it have the Winchester address on the top of the barrel?
Thanks for suppling a more accurate year of manufacture.
I was thinking last night along the same lines as you, i figured the barrel must have been replaced at some stage with a non standard size.
I swear guns have more numbers and markings than I ever expected.
I spent alot of time looking at the barrel for any winchester address and found the following...
"MADE BY THE BIRMINGHAM SMALL ARMS CO. LTD"
The barrel also has a flat machined in the 6 o'clock position 3inches from the receiver plate and two holes in the 12 o'clock position 5 inches from the receiver plate.
So....Shall we presume the gun was made around 1911 or 1912 and has had an after market barrel fitted in England to a non standard winchester size? And that in its 'poor' graded condition with missing fore stock, sights and magazine that this rifle would be of little value? or worth cleaning up then?
My apologies for all the 're-discoveries' of new numbers and markings. I was a little hesitant to touch it after we thought it may be rather antique.
I must say I really do appreciate the information you have supplied and that this forum is fantastic for people seeking detailed feedback on very specific antique firearms.
Keep up the good work,
Cheers!
Mudsta
Bert,
Thanks for suppling a more accurate year of manufacture.
I was thinking last night along the same lines as you, i figured the barrel must have been replaced at some stage with a non standard size.
I swear guns have more numbers and markings than I ever expected.
I spent alot of time looking at the barrel for any winchester address and found the following...
"MADE BY THE BIRMINGHAM SMALL ARMS CO. LTD"
The barrel also has a flat machined in the 6 o'clock position 3inches from the receiver plate and two holes in the 12 o'clock position 5 inches from the receiver plate.
So....Shall we presume the gun was made around 1911 or 1912 and has had an after market barrel fitted in England to a non standard winchester size? And that in its 'poor' graded condition with missing fore stock, sights and magazine that this rifle would be of little value? or worth cleaning up then?
My apologies for all the 're-discoveries' of new numbers and markings. I was a little hesitant to touch it after we thought it may be rather antique.
I must say I really do appreciate the information you have supplied and that this forum is fantastic for people seeking detailed feedback on very specific antique firearms.
Keep up the good work,
Cheers!
Mudsta
Hello Mudsta,
Yes, you can presume that it is a 1911/1912 production gun, that the barrel is not factory original, and that it is considered to be in "Poor" condition. I kind of doubt that the barrel was fitted in England... more than likely it was ordered by someone in Australia, and fitted there as well.
At this point, your old Model 1892 has essentially no collector value, so anything that you decide to do with it will not hurt its value. It is a great candidate for a complete rework.
You are very welcome, and it has been my pleasure.