WHAT IS IT? Mystery Pistol

normolson

I have what I believe to be one of 20 prototype pistols made for Smith & Wesson by expert shooter and craftsman, Walter F. Roper.

I have been searching for biographical info on Roper and his association with S&W without success.

My father bought this pistol nearly 70 years ago from an individual who said that they were made by "someone in Kentucky or Tennessee." The distinctive serial number and Ropers association with S&W leads me to believe that this is indeed one of the prototype pistols commissioned by S&W to be built by Roper, or that Roper himself took on the project to produce a target pistol in .22 rimfire to be produced by Smith&Wesson.

The trail has grown cold. I am eagerly seeking any information I can find on Roper and his association with S&W. A member on another forum recalls that there was an article about Roper in an old copy of Gun Digest.

In the early 70s, my Father send photos to the NRA and to Remington. The replies were the same: That could not identify the pistol.

It is finely crafted and fitted. The trigger action is smooth as silk. I've not bench rested the pistol to see how accurate it is, but It holds tight groups off hand. I've not shot it much, however.

PLEASE HELP ME FIND SOME INFORMATION ABOUT THIS BEAUTIFUL PIECE OF AMERICAN CRAFTSMANSHIP.

SEE THE PISTOL AT:

http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/normolson/?albumview=slideshow

You can click on Photobucket to get screen sized pictures.

Thank you,

Norm in Alaska

perry shooter

Remington Rolling Block That I think started life as a rifle . They did make some pistols on same style action also. It may be a modified pistol for Bulls-Eye shooting and from a well known person mainly known for Target grips. However I would not call it a Prototype pistol any more then I would call a modified 1911 type pistol built by SAY Jimmy Clark . Bob Chow, John Giles, or Shocky a Prototype. Just my $.02

EDIT [:0]J. Ropers book is title of "EXPERIMENTS OF A HANDGUNNER" reprinted 1989 by WOLFE PUBLISHING I have a copy and will see if I can find your pistol Cheers Perry Shooter. [:)]

EDIT take 2 Roper does list some S&W pistols he listed them as S&W Magnum M&P MODEL New Century model model 1917 Model 38/44 and 44Special model plus triple lock. He also list single shot pistol with pictures these are of the S&W single shot built on the revolver frame not the straight line . The picture states the S&W single shot is the first set of grips he ever made. I still stand by the fact this is not a prototype S&W. But Your Mileage May Vary.

EDIT TAKE 3[:p][:p] Yes today it is illegal to make a pistol out of a rifle However in the days when this was done no one gave it a second thought . There were write-ups in Am. Rifleman and even a DIY in "TRUE" the mans magazine. The Barrel to me looks like a rifle barrel cut down with factory rifle barrel sight still on it .

kimi

Hopefully someone can help you. That is one nice piece of history, for sure, original or not.

rufe-snow

Walter F. Roper was quite famous, during the 30's & 40's time frame. You might get hold of one of the books he wrote, "Pistol and Revolver Shooting", ( it has been reprinted ). It might have some mention of your "Mystery Pistol".

normolson

There are no markings at all on the pistol, either on the metal or on the inside of the grips. No proof stamps, no roll markings, nothing! Just the serial number. If it were a cut down Remington, I think there would be proof stamps somewhere or some other marking to indicate what its origin is. Still a mystery.

If I can corroborate some of the info trickling in, I may be able to establish authenticity.
In order to determine a value, I must first confirm its provenance. I intend to sell the pistol, but I must first determine what it is and where it came from. You understand.


http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/normolson/?albumview=slideshow

Hawk Carse

Handsome gun. What caliber, .22?

Sorry, I cannot shed any light on its origin and my collection of old Gun Digests does not include the Roper article.

But as best I can tell from Flayderman and De Haas, it is on a Remington No 4 Rolling Block action, the smallest true rolling block Remington made. It appears to have been a takedown model with the takedown screw hole across the action under the barrel shank plugged. Perhaps the pin plugging the hole retains the barrel by a press fit and notch like many .22 rifles.
The tang was bent down or replaced to form a pistol grip, and it looks like the hammer spur was reshaped sort of like a S&W revolver's. Naturally the barrel, stocks, and sights were made and fitted for the job.
Be interesting to see what the mainspring layout was, have you had the grip off?

The No 4s had different markings and mark locations over the years. Some had all their markings on the barrel, which obviously went by the board in the pistol conversion. Some were marked on the tang, which has been reshaped or replaced, which would delete the Remington name. Some were marked on the left side but that could have been taken off by drawfiling during the shaping and finishing. So I would not be bothered by the absence of Remington markings. Hardly likely that even an avid experimenter would tool up and make a close copy of an existing action that he could buy cheaply.

Hope you can find its history and make a mint of money off of it.

idahoducker

If you think it's connected with S&W you might try the folks over at www.smith-wessonforum.com

drsck

There are a couple of books on Remington Rolling Block pistols, but unfortunately I gave mine away a couple of years ago for Christmas presents. I can't remember whether there was anything in there or not that resembled your pistol; maybe someone who has a copy of Remington Rolling block books will look into it. In any case, it always seemed to me that Remington had to have done something in the way of rolling block pistols between the 1871 and the 1887. I've had both, and it just seemed there ought to have been something between them. In addition, I've seen hundreds of "custom" and "homemade" versions of various qualities and yours doesn't seem out of line with the better ones. Stylistically, the most interesting thing about yours may be the front of the barrel and sight arrangement. The band and sight configuration appears to be reminiscent of some of the early semi-auto pistols. This arrangement and the condition of the metal suggests that whoever made your was better with metal working than with stocks, since the size and shape of the forearm seems a little bulky compared to the overall lines of the gun. Wish that I had more to offer. Let us know what you discover.

dfletcher

quote:Originally posted by perry shooter
Remington Rolling Block That I think started life as a rifle . They did make some pistols on same style action also. It may be a modified pistol for Bulls-Eye shooting and from a well known person mainly known for Target grips. However I would not call it a Prototype pistol any more then I would call a modified 1911 type pistol built by SAY Jimmy Clark . Bob Chow, John Giles, or Shocky a Prototype. Just my $.02

EDIT [:0]J. Ropers book is title of "EXPERIMENTS OF A HANDGUNNER" reprinted 1989 by WOLFE PUBLISHING I have a copy and will see if I can find your pistol Cheers Perry Shooter. [:)]

EDIT take 2 Roper does list some S&W pistols he listed them as S&W Magnum M&P MODEL New Century model model 1917 Model 38/44 and 44Special model plus triple lock. He also list single shot pistol with pictures these are of the S&W single shot built on the revolver frame not the straight line . The picture states the S&W single shot is the first set of grips he ever made. I still stand by the fact this is not a prototype S&W. But Your Mileage May Vary.


If this pistol did start life as a rifle, would that be a violation of law? I wouldn't expect ATF to knock down doors on this one but so far as I know, configuring a rifle as a handgun is illegal. Would the gun's age or antique status mitigate that?

joel_black

Walter Roper had a connection with H&R and helped design their USRA 22 single shot pistol. The good workmanship and grip design certainly looks something he might have done, but not at the behest of S&W who had 2 good single shot pistol designs of their own. In all likelihood he would have made it on his own.

normolson

MYSTERY SOLVED.


The pistol is indeed a Remington Model 4 rolling block that has been converted into a pistol. The frame (see photos) shows that grip studs have been brazed and it shows a weld joint on the inside just behind the trigger guard. The mystery has been solved. Thank you all for your input.



http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/normolson/?albumview=slideshow