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Educate me, HK 91 info

skyfishskyfish Member Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭✭
edited April 2008 in Ask the Experts
I always wanted a HK91, now I've been looking and understand the German made ones(I think) but, what's a PTR 91, then I saw a CEMTE, also did Sako make some HK91's as well. Was this built in other countries like the FAL and its counterparts.

Comments

  • Wehrmacht_45Wehrmacht_45 Member Posts: 3,377
    edited November -1
    If you want an HK get the HK or the JLD PTR91 rifles. The rest are different in some ways, like the cetme, and are generally a little to a lot inferior depending on the maker. The HK was made in several countries, probably the best ones outside Germany came from Portugal and were made by their FMP, which is the machinery JLD bought so I hear to make theirs.
  • iwannausernameiwannausername Member Posts: 7,131
    edited November -1
    The G3 (and therefore HK91) is a licensed copy of the Spanish CETME rifle. For some reason, the Germans didn't like their FALs and so sold them to Turkey and adopted the G3.

    If you want a 91, get either a real HK or a JLD... if you feel lucky, you may get a good CETME from Century, but their quality is a bit hit and miss...
  • Wehrmacht_45Wehrmacht_45 Member Posts: 3,377
    edited November -1
    Actually the issue the Germans had with the FAL was the Belgians refused to give them a production license for the FAL over hard feelings left over from WW2, so the Germans adopted the CETME and got the G3 and ditched the G1(FAL).
  • skyfishskyfish Member Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks, stay clear on CEMTE and pay the extra for the German production or close counterpart.
  • gsmyth64gsmyth64 Member Posts: 68 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The JLD made guns have problems as well. Not the guns fault really, they just don't hold up. Ejectors act up at about 3 or 4000 rounds, buffers at about the same, trigger housings at about 5000, ejector springs all the time, receivers start to crack at 10-15000, broken welds, cocking levers wear quickly, and bolts and firing pins about every 5000 or so. Not a bad gun for the weekend shooter though.
  • AZEXAZEX Member Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Methinks thou art full of poop. (yes, I really typed "poop", it's not the word censor)

    The ejectors in PTR guns are FMP or German surp. The ejector springs are barely needed and the gun will run fine without them. I dare say their breakage wouldn't even be noticed. The CARRIER levers the ejector lever into position, not the spring, it only assists in returning it to it's rest position.

    Never seen a broken weld on a PTR. Ever. Cocking handles are pretty solid, actually more solid than the cheaper castings of German or FMP.

    Either you're a shill for the Toad Bailey "name du jour" cartel, or you are speaking from a position of utter ignorance.

    (Or more than likely, you're just repeating BS you see other self-anointed "experts" on the Intardnet yap about incessantly)

    Oh, FYI, I've been building HK types for 12 years, so I'll put my skillset up against anyone who's vaunted opinion you're repeating for all of our viewing pleasure.

    My biggest complaint with the PTRs has been the cheapness of the finish, they powdercoat the barreled actions, metal endcaps and that's it. Real German/FMP/Greek/even * guns have partially painted mag catch, painted mag release button, partially painted trigger, etc...it seemed they cheap out a bit on the finish.

    Their US parts are better than anything the Bailey's could ever hope to produce in their wildest dreams.

    D.
  • gsmyth64gsmyth64 Member Posts: 68 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Although I'm perhaps not the most talented gunsmith on the planet, I have been fortunate enough the last few years to be one of the luckiest. I'm currently the in-house gunsmith at a very busy public shooting range. We have approximately 70 rental guns out for public use daily, and hundreds of gallery customers on a busy weekend shooting them. It is my job to keep the guns on the line and functioning, and to keep them safe. To give you an idea of the volume we do, we put out a new Vector arms short 91 model and we figure it went through at least 3000 rounds on it's first holiday weekend. In fact we do so much volume that some manufacturers won't believe some of the problems I report until months later when others start to run into them, or until I send them pictures or explain our situation. So we're all still learning I hope, and I have learned that when some guns shoot tens of thousands of rounds in short order, they hold up differently then when they are shot the same amount over the course of a couple of years.
    As for the ejector springs, you are correct. I mis-spoke. I meant extractor springs. They need to be pretty tight in these guns, and I do re-tension them now and then but after awhile they just plain need to be replaced to keep the gun functioning well. That's not something I read, it's something I learned first hand. After awhile the ejectors do start getting upset in the area that the carrier contacts them, and then they tend to not rise up enough to get a good bite on the rim. Now when it just starts I'll swage the metal back into place with a ball-peen, but soon it needs to be welded up and ground, and sooner or later replaced. Oh, and sometimes they just break. Didn't read about this, dealt with it dozens of times. Our last PTR receiver went back for cracks 4 times now, and it's no longer being warrantied. I also have in my junk safe 2 cracked cetme's and a cracked Century Arms receiver. All with 30-50000 rounds through them, but I assure you they do crack. And f.y.i.. I recently took out HK line off the firing line altogether. To much maintenance. We run FAL .308's now and have great luck with them. I replace firing pins and bolts and extractors and that's about it. Finally cracked a receiver on our Israeli model, but it was on it's third barrel since I've been there so I think we got our money out of it.

    You will see I make few post's here. This forum is Ask the experts, and I will never comment on something I don't have plenty of first hand knowledge of. I'm no expert on all guns and I'll be the first to admit that, but I do have some unique insight on some things and my posts are worth considering. certainty not utter ignorance.
  • MooseyardMooseyard Member Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by gsmyth64
    Although I'm perhaps not the most talented gunsmith on the planet, I have been fortunate enough the last few years to be one of the luckiest. I'm currently the in-house gunsmith at a very busy public shooting range. We have approximately 70 rental guns out for public use daily, and hundreds of gallery customers on a busy weekend shooting them. It is my job to keep the guns on the line and functioning, and to keep them safe. To give you an idea of the volume we do, we put out a new Vector arms short 91 model and we figure it went through at least 3000 rounds on it's first holiday weekend. In fact we do so much volume that some manufacturers won't believe some of the problems I report until months later when others start to run into them, or until I send them pictures or explain our situation. So we're all still learning I hope, and I have learned that when some guns shoot tens of thousands of rounds in short order, they hold up differently then when they are shot the same amount over the course of a couple of years.
    As for the ejector springs, you are correct. I mis-spoke. I meant extractor springs. They need to be pretty tight in these guns, and I do re-tension them now and then but after awhile they just plain need to be replaced to keep the gun functioning well. That's not something I read, it's something I learned first hand. After awhile the ejectors do start getting upset in the area that the carrier contacts them, and then they tend to not rise up enough to get a good bite on the rim. Now when it just starts I'll swage the metal back into place with a ball-peen, but soon it needs to be welded up and ground, and sooner or later replaced. Oh, and sometimes they just break. Didn't read about this, dealt with it dozens of times. Our last PTR receiver went back for cracks 4 times now, and it's no longer being warrantied. I also have in my junk safe 2 cracked cetme's and a cracked Century Arms receiver. All with 30-50000 rounds through them, but I assure you they do crack. And f.y.i.. I recently took out HK line off the firing line altogether. To much maintenance. We run FAL .308's now and have great luck with them. I replace firing pins and bolts and extractors and that's about it. Finally cracked a receiver on our Israeli model, but it was on it's third barrel since I've been there so I think we got our money out of it.

    You will see I make few post's here. This forum is Ask the experts, and I will never comment on something I don't have plenty of first hand knowledge of. I'm no expert on all guns and I'll be the first to admit that, but I do have some unique insight on some things and my posts are worth considering. certainty not utter ignorance.

    Well said!
  • MossbergboogieMossbergboogie Member Posts: 12,211
    edited November -1
    SAR 8 made in greece under the name of springfield armory are a licenced HK 91 more or less. Some of them had aluminum recievers, so you want to steer clear of them if you can.
  • AZEXAZEX Member Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "and I will never comment on something I don't have plenty of first hand knowledge of."

    That definitely puts you above 99.999% of the posters on the Intardnet.

    Cracks in anything made by Century do not surprise me in the least, all their receivers for the HK types are either goofy cast aluminum, or junky out-of-spec Hesse made crap.

    The ejector thing is definitely odd. My FA HK G3s and G3Ks have had no such issues in 10s of thousands of rounds of PD demos. Perhaps PTR/JLD bought some * or Turk ones thinking they would save some money.

    Been building FALs since 1995 and in my 3 FA ones I've replaced an extractor...since 99. I had a hard chrome fetish for years, and chromed the internals, bolt, carrier etc...word of advices, never chrome extractors. On a FAL a chromed extractor results in 2 shot burst and failure to go into battery, I never figured out why, I just chagned the extractor to a parked one and it ran fine since.

    D.
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