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Old A.C.P.

RCrosbyRCrosby Member Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭
edited December 2013 in Ask the Experts
First, my apologies for not including photos with this post. I have a few decent ones and will be glad to forward them in email if this tweaks anyones interest sufficiently. (Past efforts to post pics have been unsuccessful. Either my brain, or my computer, are not up to the task. Sorry.)

My sister has a 1911 Colt that may have more than the "usual" value. At this point I'm just trying to determine if slide and frame are matched, or obviously mixed.
My father worked in the Winchester ballistics lab during WWII and I suspect that this piece may have left the New Haven plant with him.

Markings:
Left side of frame, appears to be serial # "C460"
Right side of frame, "GOVERNMENT MODEL"
Also on right, finely engraved, "W.R.A. Co. 8-19-12"
Right side of slide, "Colt Automatic Calibre .45" w/ Rampant Colt logo
Left side of slide, "Colt's Pt.F.A. MFG. Co. Hartford, Ct. U.S.A.
Pat'd Apr. 20, 1897?, Sept. 9, 1902 Dec. 19, 1905, Feb. 14, 1911,
Aug. 19, 1913"

The engraved date of 8-19-12, which pre-dates the Aug. 19, 1913 is what first raised my suspicion that frame and slide may not be original to each other. Significance of the engraved date would help, I know.

Condition I would judge to be roughly 60%. Clean with a lot of original high polish blue and little or no pitting.

Sound interesting? Or just an old parts gun?

Thanks,
Rob
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Comments

  • Hawk CarseHawk Carse Member Posts: 4,383 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It sounds like you have got it pinned down, a very early receiver and a replacement slide.
    C460 is a 1912 serial number on the receiver.
    The 1913 patent date was added to the slide markings in 1914.
    The "horsie" was added to the right side of the slide just before the change from 1911 to 1911A1 configuration in commercial guns. So it is later than 1924.

    I figure it got a new slide when the Winchester shop wore out the original.

    I don't know if the Winchester connection makes up for the mixed parts, but it is a fascinating heirloom.
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  • nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    And, it's not a "1911"; it's a "Government Model".

    Neal
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  • perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,105 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You pistol C 460 was Shipped AUG. 16th to Winchester care of Mr.Tishig.1912.. Would love to see some pictures . I have C 1308 but sadly was stored in a leather holster the bluing that is there is Great but where it touched leather many pin head deep pits[:(]
    coltc13083_zpsb57ae3bf.jpg[/URL][/img]

    coltc13082.jpg[/URL]
    The lighting is poor on both pictures but you can see the FIRE BLUE small parts much better in a hands on look
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  • RCrosbyRCrosby Member Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Carl,
    I'll send you what I have though it may be a few days. Unfortunately with the gun in Ct. and me in Maine, I won't be able to offer any follow-ups.
    Rob
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  • perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,105 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Got Pictures Thanks Look at the one with date #477 Do I see a Name above it
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  • RCrosbyRCrosby Member Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Karl,
    Not a name. Finely engraved "W.R.A. Co."
    (Winchester Repeating Arms Co.)
    p.s. Does the first name of "Merton" show up in early '40's records? Possibly supervisor in the ballistics lab.?
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  • perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,105 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I can't find that name in Reference But of course the 1940's would have been 30 years After the pistol was shipped. The early slides were Much softer than later slides The area of the Breach face.Firing pin hole on early slides were BUSHED /insert for repair.I find it Interesting that Winchester would have a PISTOL shipped to themselves FROM Colt because The two companies were Not the best of friends. I know Winchester did make a few pistols but never heard of one in 45 ACP or any semi automatic Pistol. I have some Colt Lightning rifles But they were never a serious Competitor To the MUCH more popular Leaver action rifles of Winchester and Marlin as well as Savage.
    EDIT good thought about the AMMO It would be strange about a contract. as 1912. when the pistol was shipped was before any war contracts were even though of.
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  • Hawk CarseHawk Carse Member Posts: 4,383 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Winchester dealt in ammunition, too.
    I figure they needed a .45 ACP gun to test .45 ACP ammo.

    The cover of Flayderman 9th edition shows a 1911, three rough frames, and a partly machined slide. The gun and frames have WRA tags on the trigger guards. There is a persistent rumor that Winchester was offered a WWI contract like Remington-UMC, but nobody has ever found a gun or even parts like the Savage slides.
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