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Marlin and Winchester Levergun Cartridge Options?
Juggernaut
Member Posts: 719 ✭✭✭✭
After researching ballistics and available cartridges for the Marlin and Winchester Leverguns one can only wonder if there is an option for a safe rechamber/rebore to a more suitable cartridge...
Factory made ammunition with the ballistics of the .35 Whelen, .358 Winchester or other superior cartridges would work with a wide metplat flatnose bullet; or is it just limited to the '+P hot-loaded' type ammunition like Garrett, Corbon, BuffaloBore, Double Tap and RBCD?
Thanks
Factory made ammunition with the ballistics of the .35 Whelen, .358 Winchester or other superior cartridges would work with a wide metplat flatnose bullet; or is it just limited to the '+P hot-loaded' type ammunition like Garrett, Corbon, BuffaloBore, Double Tap and RBCD?
Thanks
Comments
So... yes, it can be done - heck, anything can be done given enough money. But is it worth it? Probably not. If you want to magnumize a lever gun, get one in a large bore to begin with and go with the 1800s method - big heavy bullet moving at moderate speed.
Browning made the 1895 repros in .30-06; it would not be hard to convert one to .35 Whelen or 9.3x62.
One of the issues is rimmed cartridge vs. rimless or semi-rimmed, esp when the tube mag is taken into consideration. Then the locking issue, which is in general just a weakness of the design - but that can be solved with a new one - see the Browning BLR.
So... yes, it can be done - heck, anything can be done given enough money. But is it worth it? Probably not. If you want to magnumize a lever gun, get one in a large bore to begin with and go with the 1800s method - big heavy bullet moving at moderate speed.
I prefer the tubular magazine of the Marlin and Winchester as opposed to the Browning's box magazine and is why I limited it to the Marlin and Winchester...although the Browning is fine in its own right.
I like that, '1800's method' is good and correct and for that matter another analogy for a 'big heavy bullet moving at moderate speed' might also be a lumbering 'freight train'.
My goal is to see if there are any other possibilities other than what is available, but as stated its probably remote at best or like you said not worth the cost.
At least there are several '+P hot-loaded' type ammunition manufacturers available as opposed to some of the under-powered factory ammunition that is usually marketed.
quote:Originally posted by Hawk Carse
Search the secondary market for a .356 Winchester or Marlin. It amounts to a .358 Win with rim and flatnosed bullets.
Browning made the 1895 repros in .30-06; it would not be hard to convert one to .35 Whelen or 9.3x62.
Okay, but that would be from a Marlin 336 or Winchester 94 receiver and not sure if this is correct, but apparently there was was some question as to the safety of a rechamber/rebore to a .356/.358 with a Marlin 336 or Winchester 94 receiver due to questionable SAAMI CUP pressures, IIUC?
Right, but I prefer to go with a tubular magazine rather than a box.
Regards
The 356 Winchester, was only offered by Winchester, in their "94' Big Bore". As stated, it was basically a rimmed 358 Winchester, much like the 307 Winchester was a rimmed version of the 308 Winchester.
With all of that said, I would imagine, that it could be necked to 338, for something similar to the 338 Federal in performance. You know they also make Leverevolution bullets(made by Hornady), with ELASTOMER tips, in 0.308", 0.323"(for the 32 Winchester Special), 0.338"(for the 338 Marlin), and 0.358 calibers. It has a soft pointed tip, for use in tubular magazines. I am sure they also make them in larger caliber's too, for the 405, and 0.452" for the 45 caliber handgun crowd, and 0.458 for the 45-70 crowd.
Best
EDIT 1
Jug,
I do believe that the 338 Federal can use somewhat ordinary powders to reach it's peak, as well as the 356/358 Winchester. The Hornady Leverevolution rounds use a proprietary powder blend, and I think Hodgdon was making that blend for Hornady. I do think that that Superformance blend has been released, and it has what we would term as a progressive burn rate. I don't forsee any pressure problems, as long as you start low and work up.
One thing to remember, is that a round with a lot of horsepower does no good, if you can't put it on target. I am not speeking in just deer terms, but it is something I can relate to, but I have killed a very nice Whitetail buck with a very well placed 17 caliber, 20 grain bullet. So sometimes, maximum loads really do not give us what we want, or need.
Best
EDIT 2
Jug,
The 1800's method, is really no joke. Back in those days, the 45-70 was chambered in more single shots, than lever gun's. They did not have to worry about tubular magazines. I personally have some experience with a Sharps 1874 repro, with a Vernier sight, and a Browning 1885 BPCR rifle, both in 45-70, and almost a hand full of 1886's in 45-70(two new, and two older). Those rifles with the vernier sights, made it possible for me to consistantly hit gallon milk jugs out to 400 yards...6 or 7 times out of 10. At 300 yards was just about every time...all of this from a rest of course. The loads I was using was 32 grains of IMR 4198(good friend on this forum gave me that info...thank you Mr. Winchester[:D]), behind a 405 grain hard cast Misourri Bullet Co., #1 Buffalo. I have trapped the bullet at just under 1400fps, just 12 feet in front of the muzzle. But low and behold, they are like trains when they arrive.
Best
EDIT 3
Yes, Jug....
You might infact even have to build yourself a whole building, just to lock yourself away in, to be in peace, with your powder, primer's, and bullets, if you start reloading. The Rochucker Supreme kit is a good start, and I have added on several options, to the point, I am sure I have several thousand $$ wrapped up in just reloading tooling, and gadgetry, not to mention components.
However, I will tell you, there is nothing like loosing yourself, into a good reloading manual, and/or creating that special load, for a special event. Yes, it takes time and patience, but the rewards are very forthcoming.
One more tidbit....You keep mentioning about the wide metplat bullets, vs the pointed, or fmj. It is not the heavy weight that slows the wide nose, heavy bnullets, but the ballistic coefficient. A 520 grain bullet ment for shooting steel animal targets out to 500 meter's has a very good ballistic coefficient, compared to against the traditional 300-405 grainer's, in the 45-70. I do know about it's killing power, and have gotten what in Upstate NY, we call a twofer, un expectedly...two deer in one shot.
You will love reloading...it can become as much of a passion as shooting, and hunting.
Best
I'd say a Winchester or Marlin in full power 450 Marlin or hot 45-70 is enough gun for anything in North America. Not far behind a 458 Win Mag. Not the best choice for shots beyond 300 yards but then how many of those do we make with a 358 Win or 35 Whelen? The .450 Marlin looks relatively similar to the 45-70 and in velocity the 45-70 is faster than the .458, however in energy the .458 has it. True the 45-70 as well as the .458 really starts declining at about 300y due to the heavier grain weight.
Apparently its difficult to get these heavy rounds flatter without having to 'supercharge' them drastically effecting SAAMI cup pressure to possibly dangerous levels without completely changing the firearm, so the '1800's method' as stated above by llama applies here.
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
Jug, The 356 Winchester, was only offered by Winchester, in their "94' Big Bore". As stated, it was basically a rimmed 358 Winchester, much like the 307 Winchester was a rimmed version of the 308 Winchester.
With all of that said, I would imagine, that it could be necked to 338, for something similar to the 338 Federal in performance. You know they also make Leverevolution bullets(made by Hornady), with ELASTOMER tips, in 0.308", 0.323"(for the 32 Winchester Special), 0.338"(for the 338 Marlin), and 0.358 calibers. It has a soft pointed tip, for use in tubular magazines. I am sure they also make them in larger caliber's too, for the 405, and 0.452" for the 45 caliber handgun crowd, and 0.458 for the 45-70 crowd.
Best Tsr, the .338 Fed and .358 have good effective ballistics and a cartridge in relation would be great for the levergun; however the SAAMI cup pressures are of concern and may not be possible to achieve that performance without raising the cup considerably.
Would prefer a truncated or fn bullet with a wide metplat, although the polymer tips shouldn't pose any problems.
Regards
Winchester in their later years created and even hotter version of the 38-55 when they first introduced the Big Bore in .375 Winchester.
My personal favorite Winchester cartridge is the 405 WCF... it gets your attention immediately[}:)]. It was offered in both the Model 1895 lever-action and the Model 1885 Single Shot rifle (the middle rifle in my signature line picture).
Jug, I do believe that the 338 Federal can use somewhat ordinary powders to reach it's peak, as well as the 356/358 Winchester. The Hornady Leverevolution rounds use a proprietary powder blend, and I think Hodgdon was making that blend for Hornady. I do think that that Superformance blend has been released, and it has what we would term as a progressive burn rate. I don't forsee any pressure problems, as long as you start low and work up. One thing to remember, is that a round with a lot of horsepower does no good, if you can't put it on target. I am not speeking in just deer terms, but it is something I can relate to, but I have killed a very nice Whitetail buck with a very well placed 17 caliber, 20 grain bullet. So sometimes, maximum loads really do not give us what we want, or need. Best[brown]
EDIT 2
Jug, The 1800's method, is really no joke. Back in those days, the 45-70 was chambered in more single shots, than lever gun's. They did not have to worry about tubular magazines. I personally have some experience with a Sharps 1874 repro, with a Vernier sight, and a Browning 1885 BPCR rifle, both in 45-70, and almost a hand full of 1886's in 45-70(two new, and two older). Those rifles with the vernier sights, made it possible for me to consistantly hit gallon milk jugs out to 400 yards...6 or 7 times out of 10. At 300 yards was just about every time...all of this from a rest of course. The loads I was using was 32 grains of IMR 4198(good friend on this forum gave me that info...thank you Mr. Winchester[:D]), behind a 405 grain hard cast Misourri Bullet Co., #1 Buffalo. I have trapped the bullet at just under 1400fps, just 12 feet in front of the muzzle. But low and behold, they are like trains when they arrive. Best[/brown
Tsr, Unfortunately I do not reload, however may have to start, there is alot to be taken into consideration when reloading though being that the measurements must be exactly correct and to not get interrupted and such and if so or if there were question to dump the charge and start over since the questionable alternative is not worth the risk.
That aside I have considered it and was recommended to start out with a deluxe rock-chucker kit which would solve some problems but create others, such as where to store the powder safely, maybe a fire-locker might work okay.
I like the polymer tip idea as that might work out okay, but I do prefer the fn wide bullet whenever available. The issue with spitzer, softpoint and fmj type bullets is that the larger the cartridge the more increased potential danger of a magazine detonation due to the increased recoil and while not likely it is still possible and so I avoid it and prefer the flatnose with a wide metplat bullet.
Would also need a chronograph as well and book to track the ballistics progression, might even discover a great combination of powder, cartridge, primer and bullet perhaps one-day.:)
Yes they are definitely like trains, I have seen some evidence of the destructive force of large bullets moving at moderate speeds, such as the .45-70...
And not only do they often stop large animals dead in their tracks at considerable distances for the cartridge in question; they can also do alot of unnecessary damage if an HC alloy type round is not used as opposed to copper jacked lead rounds, giving further testimony to their devastating capability.
The scientific curiosity that some of us have is often intrigued by what can further be achieved so the thought of possibly pushing the bullet to a higher velocity with an increased energy all within the confines of a relatively safe pressure is highly sought after...
Apparently I may just have to be happy with whats available(which I am good with) and is also what I kind-of thought might be the case.
I will have to look into the whole reloading thing though and safely try some combinations and then chronograph and wet newspaper test them.
This all started from looking to upgrade from the .44 magnum revolver to the S&W .460 Magnum revolver and needing to compliment it with a moderately sized heavy cartridge rifle which was the focus...
Which I would say after all the information researched and presented that the Marlin and Winchester in .45-70 would still be that rifle and cartridge combination of choice in conjunction with the S&W .460 Magnum revolver.
quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
I always wanted to build a Winchester takedown 95 in 30-40 Ackley improved.
Have never tried that particular round, what are the ballistics on it? are they similar to the 30-40 Krag as it has good ballistics, but again alot of these have spitzer, softpoint and fmj type bullets which are not preferable for tubular magazines.
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.Another option is a Winchester Model 1894 in 38-55. Load the 38-55 to the old original "W.H.V." specs, and it is plenty potent enough.
Winchester in their later years created and even hotter version of the 38-55 when they first introduced the Big Bore in .375 Winchester.
My personal favorite Winchester cartridge is the 405 WCF... it gets your attention immediately[}:)]. It was offered in both the Model 1895 lever-action and the Model 1885 Single Shot rifle (the middle rifle in my signature line picture).
Bert,
The 38-55 and .375 Win look like decent moderate ranged cartridges, but I agree that the .405 with its thump even at 500y of energy would definitely get the targets attention.
However the problem that I keep coming across is that the cartridge often times has a spitzer, softpoint or fmj type bullet and not the needed and preferred flatnose with a wide metplat bullet for tubular magazines as well as added safety.
With a single shot rifle of course there isn't a problem, but I like the 9 and 8 shot capacity of the Marlin 1895 and Winchester 1886, not that their needed, but in the unlikely chance that they were its there.
Regards
EDIT 3
Yes, Jug....
You might infact even have to build yourself a whole building, just to lock yourself away in, to be in peace, with your powder, primer's, and bullets, if you start reloading. The Rochucker Supreme kit is a good start, and I have added on several options, to the point, I am sure I have several thousand $$ wrapped up in just reloading tooling, and gadgetry, not to mention components.
However, I will tell you, there is nothing like loosing yourself, into a good reloading manual, and/or creating that special load, for a special event. Yes, it takes time and patience, but the rewards are very forthcoming.
One more tidbit....You keep mentioning about the wide metplat bullets, vs the pointed, or fmj. It is not the heavy weight that slows the wide nose, heavy bnullets, but the ballistic coefficient. A 520 grain bullet ment for shooting steel animal targets out to 500 meter's has a very good ballistic coefficient, compared to against the traditional 300-405 grainer's, in the 45-70. I do know about it's killing power, and have gotten what in Upstate NY, we call a twofer, un expectedly...two deer in one shot.
You will love reloading...it can become as much of a passion as shooting, and hunting. Best
Might have too considering all the distractions that people tend to face in life while trying to do something that requires alot of concentration without interruptions and will probably get more comfortable with it as I would progress...
The 'Rock-Chucker Supreme kit' may have been what was meant too and sounds like a pretty cool hobby from what everyone has said that reloads, as well as a good shtf preparation.
Concerning bullet shapes my concern is with using spitzer, softpoint and fmj bullets in tubular magazines which some do however I do not and prefer to use those in box magazines where as safest to do so.
However the flatnose and roundnose can be used in tubular magazines safely as the more powerful the cartridge the greater potential risk for a magazine detonation using spitzer, softpoint and fmj bullets and while not likely the thought is a little un-nerving to say the least.
As to ballistic coefficient or (BC) there are several properties involved to overcome resistance in flight and is not limited to one property but several including aerodynamics, mass(for use of a better and easier to explain non-tech term -weight) drag, and diameter... BC can be kg/m? but the more commonly used lb/in? seems to be preferred at least here anyway. However its much easier to explain it in more non-technical terms so as not to write it out and explain it and overburden the average reader, limiting it to velocity fps, energy ft/lbs and range drift and drop...
Anyway I presume that the 'Rock-Chucker Supreme kit' comes with a good starters manual and such but will probably have to find a more in depth manual which will probably have fine selections for smokeless powders, casings, primers, bullets, dies etc.
Regards