In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.

Which Dutch Carbine do I have?

1BigGuy1BigGuy Member Posts: 4,033 ✭✭✭
edited January 2014 in Ask the Experts
This is a recent Gun Show find. I THINK it's a Dutch M1895 No. 1 Cavalry carbine. The receiver has a Steyr 1896 date on it, but the stock has a 1926 Hembrug cartouche. Every part matches the serial numbers, including the stock. (I used to think the Germans were overzealous about proofs and numbers. This rifle goes WAY beyond that. Even the screw heads all have Dutch proof marks on them!)
ry%3D480
It doesn't appear to have ever had an upper handguard.
The only thing wrong is that it's missing the lower stock piece that covers the trigger guard (as seen above).

ry%3D480

ry%3D480

ry%3D480
1949P is the serial number, not the year of manufacture.

Did the Dutch re-arsenal their carbines in the mid twenties? Can anyone provide a better verification of this rifle's date and place of manufacture?

Comments

  • rufe-snowrufe-snow Member Posts: 18,649 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Kind of hard to identify. As the Dutch had about 6 different carbines. Because it has a bayonet mount,isn't a Cavalry carbine. Going over my references make me think it's a #4, used by Cyclists and Machine Gunners.

    I use to think the krauts were nuts with all their rifle variations. The Dutch have them beat all to hell.
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,579 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Nice looking rifle. What a pig sticker attachment! I never minded all the numbers and stamps, to me it means someone actually looked to the part close enough to align the stamp. Half the fun of a new firearm is researching it to figure out just what it is, the other half is working up a load for it to wring out its best performance.

    I might have a Lyman tap in full length sizer for the 6.5 Dutch but it could be for a 6.5 Portuguese, I just remember it was some odd ball that I likely will never use or own a rifle. I'll look for it and see about starting off the New Year Happy with a give away. I'll look in the book of rifles also.

    Added No luck finding the box of Lyman sizers yet.

    However "The Book of Rifles" by W.H.B. Smith and Joseph E. Smith The Stackpole Company Harrisberg Pa. has under the Netherlands chapter several pic's and pages about the 1895 Mannlicher.

    pg. 333

    "Quantities of these rifles were put to use by the Germans in World War II, and many were brought back as souvenirs. Many of these bear the name "Hemberg" and the date on the receiver."

    Other Dutch Weapons

    The rifle just described is also found in two common carbine forms in Holland - the standard carbine and the Gendarmerie carbine. The latter is fitted with a permanently attached rod-style bayonet which pivots backward on a hinge-pin on the upper band near the muzzle so as to lie under the barrel in a recess in the stock. The Gendarmerie carbine was developed primarily for colonial use. Carbines having the left side of the magazine protected by wood stock were so designed for mounted use, the stock protecting the magazine and preventing it from catching when the carbine was * out of the leather saddle bucket.
  • 1BigGuy1BigGuy Member Posts: 4,033 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Half the fun of a new firearm is researching it to figure out just what it is, the other half is working up a load for it to wring out its best performance.

    Right on Charlie. I wasn't looking for this rifle; but when I saw it I had to have it. Now I'm researching it's history and need some help. The internet isn't all that great for this one. . .
    Interesting story regarding ammo for this. I bought a giant box (probably weighed 50 pounds) of various ammo calibers from a guy via {elsewhere}. Most of the ammo I had no use for, but SOME of it was worth the expense alone. After I got this rifle home I checked my "supply" and found 90 rounds of 6.5 Dutch dated 1943 in original boxes with German WWII markings and 42 rounds in another box from Hembrug, Netherlands dated 1939! I don't know if I can bring myself to shoot up any of this collectable ammo though.
    By the way, if anyone knows where I can find that wooden piece to cover the magazine well, please let me know.
  • rufe-snowrufe-snow Member Posts: 18,649 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Funny thing, about that W W II German made 6.5 ammo. Number of years ago, bunch of that stuff turned up on the surplus market. Real clean ammo, looked like it had been properly stored since it was made. Since few of the Dutch and Roumanian rifles, were still around in shooting condition. Wasn't much interest in it.

    Chances are because of the 1926 dated Hembrug stock. Your carbine was rearsenaled/reworked, to another configuration. Perhaps for some reason the reworked carbines. Were deliberately made without the upper handguard and wooden magazine protector?
  • richardaricharda Member Posts: 405 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Had a Hemburg 6.5 mm carbine some years ago; it also lacked a handguard - did they all come with one originally?
  • 1BigGuy1BigGuy Member Posts: 4,033 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    After further review. . . the ruling on the field stands (I think).
    Partly because they were "frugal" with their funding, the Dutch had a number of variations of the Model 1895, with both "Old" and "New" versions of the same models!

    The first Model 1895 had a 31" barrel. (Nope, not this rifle)

    The M95 No.1 Cavalry Carbine had no hand guard and sling bars on the left side with a barrel length of 17.7" and was built by both Steyr AND Hembrug. In the First World War they had bayonet fittings. (YES!)

    The M95 No.2 Gendarmerie Carbine was full stocked with bayonet fittings. (Nope)

    The M95 No.3 Engineer & Artillery Carbine was similar to No.2 but with long hand guard. (Nope)

    The M95 No.4 Bicycle Troops' Carbine was similar to No.3 but with hand guard the same length as the stock. (Nope)

    The M95 No.5 was built by Hembrug beginning in 1930 and is a cut-down version of the of the original M1895 rifle. It was issued to the Dutch Air Force and had a barrel length of 17.9". (Nope)

    The M95 Military Police Carbine did not have bayonet fitting. (Nope)

    This website was very helpful (along with Google Translate):
    http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/strategion/strategion/i004797.html

    I suspect that rufe-snow is correct when he suggests that this rifle was probably reworked in the late 1920s into its current configuration, but I can't find any information about such a program.

    I would dearly love to find the wooden piece with the metal backing for the magazine cover. And a cleaning rod would be nice to add too. But I have a feeling that those will be needles in haystacks.
Sign In or Register to comment.