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Ammo Sales in NY State, cont'd
beantownshootah
Member Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭
I was typing this but got "locked out" so I'm continuing here:
quote:Originally posted by thumpper
Thanks, for the information..
Don't thank me. . .I'm not a lawyer, the law here is somewhat vague (likely deliberately so), and it may not be correct.
So far as I can tell, the part about buying ammo is correct. All purchases in State are supposed to go through licensed dealers. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that you can buy ammo from out of State so long as it goes through a dealer. Now, whether or not you can find a dealer who is willing to do this transfer for you, or at what cost, are different matters.
On selling it. . .honestly, don't know. You have to look at page 35 of the law, here:
http://www.lohud.com/interactive/article/99999999/NEWS01/130116006/DOCUMENT-Full-text-New-York-s-new-gun-control-law-called-NY-SAFE-Act-
The law specifically regulates all "commercial transfer of ammunition", requiring face-to-face transfer via a licensed intermediary, as defined by 265.00.24.
That definition can be found on the bottom of page 20. A "seller of ammo" is anyone "engaged in the business" of selling, buying, or keeping ammo.
How much ammo do you have to sell to be in the "business" of doing so? If you're a private individual selling one box of extra ammo, is that a regulated "commercial" sale?
Honestly, I have no idea. Maybe there is NY State precedent here. . .maybe not.
I don't see anything in this law that prohibits private TRANSFER of ammo, so long as such transfer isn't a commercial. The law regulates sale of ammo, and regulates COMMERCIAL transfer (which has to be recorded and face-to-face). But I don't see anything here that prevents say person A from GIVING person B a box of ammo, so long as person B is otherwise legally able to own it.
If you wanted to sell it to another NY State resident, you probably could do that legally. . .so long as you went through a dealer. . .basically the same as a gun. Again, whether or not you can find a dealer willing to do this or at what cost are different matters.
In practice, legal or not, I don't think anyone is going to get too worked up about an individual selling a few boxes of ammo OUTSIDE the State of NY. . .assuming they even found out about it. . .which would be unlikely unless you drew attention to the sale.
Again, maybe you could run this type of sale through a dealer, which should make it OK. As another option, maybe instead of selling the ammo, you could trade a dealer some ammo you didn't want for some you did want.
But as a matter of common sense, if you have the ability to sell your ammo from outside of the State, you're probably better off doing that.
quote:Originally posted by thumpper
Thanks, for the information..
Don't thank me. . .I'm not a lawyer, the law here is somewhat vague (likely deliberately so), and it may not be correct.
So far as I can tell, the part about buying ammo is correct. All purchases in State are supposed to go through licensed dealers. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that you can buy ammo from out of State so long as it goes through a dealer. Now, whether or not you can find a dealer who is willing to do this transfer for you, or at what cost, are different matters.
On selling it. . .honestly, don't know. You have to look at page 35 of the law, here:
http://www.lohud.com/interactive/article/99999999/NEWS01/130116006/DOCUMENT-Full-text-New-York-s-new-gun-control-law-called-NY-SAFE-Act-
The law specifically regulates all "commercial transfer of ammunition", requiring face-to-face transfer via a licensed intermediary, as defined by 265.00.24.
That definition can be found on the bottom of page 20. A "seller of ammo" is anyone "engaged in the business" of selling, buying, or keeping ammo.
How much ammo do you have to sell to be in the "business" of doing so? If you're a private individual selling one box of extra ammo, is that a regulated "commercial" sale?
Honestly, I have no idea. Maybe there is NY State precedent here. . .maybe not.
I don't see anything in this law that prohibits private TRANSFER of ammo, so long as such transfer isn't a commercial. The law regulates sale of ammo, and regulates COMMERCIAL transfer (which has to be recorded and face-to-face). But I don't see anything here that prevents say person A from GIVING person B a box of ammo, so long as person B is otherwise legally able to own it.
If you wanted to sell it to another NY State resident, you probably could do that legally. . .so long as you went through a dealer. . .basically the same as a gun. Again, whether or not you can find a dealer willing to do this or at what cost are different matters.
In practice, legal or not, I don't think anyone is going to get too worked up about an individual selling a few boxes of ammo OUTSIDE the State of NY. . .assuming they even found out about it. . .which would be unlikely unless you drew attention to the sale.
Again, maybe you could run this type of sale through a dealer, which should make it OK. As another option, maybe instead of selling the ammo, you could trade a dealer some ammo you didn't want for some you did want.
But as a matter of common sense, if you have the ability to sell your ammo from outside of the State, you're probably better off doing that.
Comments
Moving out.
As you know, the SAFE Act that was passed last year over my strenuous objection includes a background check on buyers of ammunition in New York. Because I have had a number of calls on this issue, I wanted to provide an update.
The law requires that the background checks on ammo buyers start on January 15, 2014, OR whenever the state police superintendent certifies that the relevant database is in place and operational.
Please note the following:
1) While ammunition sellers and retailers must register with the state by January 15, the database is not in place and is not operational. Ammunition background checks will not begin on January 15;
2) The SAFE Act does not authorize any fee for the ammo background check. I have received numerous calls about a supposed $10 fee for the ammo background check. The state police would need clear authority in the law to impose a fee, and there is none in the law. I believe that some are confused by the fee that dealers can charge when they perform NICS checks for someone involved in a private sale. If a retailer or big box store clerk is telling you that his company is going to charge you a $10 state fee for ammo background checks, ask to see the letter from the state police;
3) While the SAFE Act now prohibits free citizens from exercising their right to accept personal delivery of ammunition via the Internet, a vendor can ship your Internet purchase of ammunition to a licensed ammunition seller (gun dealer or FFL) where you take possession of it in person. This might happen, where for instance, a dealer might not keep ammo on hand in unusual or less common calibers;
4) The prohibition on Internet sales, and the ammunition background check, do NOT apply to reloading components. You may still purchase powder, shot, wads, primers and hulls via your usual sources (but I respectfully suggest that you support your local corner gun dealer).
You can stay updated on the SAFE Act at this link:
http://www.governor.ny.gov/nysafeact/gun-reform
Last year, the legislature reduced the applicable portion of budget funding for the ammunition background check database. Little funding is available to move forward on its development. To build a database that will check multiple sources simultaneously (mental health records, orders of protection, felony convictions, etc.) will take a period of time and substantial funding. It's been almost a year - and it's not ready to go.
We had some good news with a federal judge's decision striking down the SAFE Act's limit on seven cartridges in a magazine, but there's much more to be done.
I will continue my efforts to peel back as much of this travesty as possible.
Say you have a New York resident traveling outside his state and buys ammo? Is he required to submit that he did this where his state has no jurisdiction?
So, another question on the SAFE act. This might warrant it's own topic but we'll see where this goes first.
Say you have a New York resident traveling outside his state and buys ammo? Is he required to submit that he did this where his state has no jurisdiction?
-I linked the text of the law in the last post on this. Its around 39 pages long, but all of the bits on ammo have to do with sales through dealers in State. This law says nothing whatever about out of State sales and simply doesn't apply to the the situation you describe. Ammo sales that occur in State have to be done through dealers, and have to be registered with the State.
-Even if it claimed to, I can't possibly see how NY State law could apply to ammo sales or any other activity out of that State. The State of NY has no jurisdiction outside its borders and has no legal authority to control activity outside its jurisdiction.
-How the heck would the State of NY know if a State resident were to buy ammo out of State? Ammo sales in most if not all OTHER states aren't recorded, and its perfectly legal for individuals who are not State residents to buy ammo in most (but not all) states.
As I mentioned in the last post, this law regulates commercial SALE of ammo in the State on NY.
It does not regulate IMPORTATION of ammo, nor does it regulate non-commercial sale TRANSFER of ammo. So far as I can tell, there is absolutely nothing in *this* law prohibiting any individual otherwise legally able to possess ammo in NY from driving across the State border into VT, loading their truck with all the ammo they like, then driving back with it into NY. There may be other laws in NY that prohibit that. . .I don't know. . .but this one doesn't.
Now, once imported, State residents can't legally sell it in State, unless they're a dealer or go through one, but that's a different question/issue.
The Attorney General, of NY State, and the Governor has told him, that they will set up a check point to monitor incoming, SAFE ACT violators, just inside NY.
I do not know, how this is going to play out, as they keep making theior adjustments, of how they want the law to be. There are several law suits in place, to repeal all, or part of this, as er call it, the UN-SAFE ACT(S.A.F.E. ACT). Some of the leading parties bringing these suits are, the NYS Rifle, and Pistol Association, SCOPE(Shooter's Committee On Political Education), the NYS Sheriffs Association, some of the county Sheriffs individually(including the Sheriff of our county, who happens to be my cousin), some of the county clerks, just so you have an idea.
The Governor, Attorney General, and their major backer, Mr. Bloomberg, have threatened political retribution, for all elected officials who voice opposistion, to their agenda.
I am telling you guys, here on this forum this, as the MAJOR BACKER, has enough $$$ laid away, to bankrupt most any competition/competitor/company/opposistion in court. They have threatened frivilous law suits to out of state vendors, and to those who do not comply with their demands...legal or not. That is right, they don't care if it is legal, because a bankrupt opposistion is harmless. Their eye, is on the big ticket. They are going to front a run for POTUS, and that is what Cuomo and Bloomberg, are planting the foundation for.
This is not just NY State's fight. If it is not stopped, it will end up in all of your hands too.
Moderators, I believe that this thread belongs in the political forum, or the GD forum, at the very least.
Best
EDIT 1
quote:
Originally posted by tsr1965
A friend of mine, owns a company that I have been doing business with for 30 plus years. The company is one of the MAJOR arms, ammunition, and accesories distributor's, in the North East, and is located in one of the largest cities, in NY. Upon the enactment of the SAFE ACT, he purchased a location, just across the border of NYS, to the south. He now has two locations, in that other state, both are retail stores.
The Attorney General, of NY State, and the Governor has told him, that they will set up a check point to monitor incoming, SAFE ACT violators, just inside NY.
I do not know, how this is going to play out, as they keep making theior adjustments, of how they want the law to be. There are several law suits in place, to repeal all, or part of this, as er call it, the UN-SAFE ACT(S.A.F.E. ACT). Some of the leading parties bringing these suits are, the NYS Rifle, and Pistol Association, SCOPE(Shooter's Committee On Political Education), the NYS Sheriffs Association, some of the county Sheriffs individually(including the Sheriff of our county, who happens to be my cousin), some of the county clerks, just so you have an idea.
The Governor, Attorney General, and their major backer, Mr. Bloomberg, have threatened political retribution, for all elected officials who voice opposistion, to their agenda.
I am telling you guys, here on this forum this, as the MAJOR BACKER, has enough $$$ laid away, to bankrupt most any competition/competitor/company/opposistion in court. They have threatened frivilous law suits to out of state vendors, and to those who do not comply with their demands...legal or not. That is right, they don't care if it is legal, because a bankrupt opposistion is harmless. Their eye, is on the big ticket. They are going to front a run for POTUS, and that is what Cuomo and Bloomberg, are planting the foundation for.
This is not just NY State's fight. If it is not stopped, it will end up in all of your hands too.
Moderators, I believe that this thread belongs in the political forum, or the GD forum, at the very least.
Best
Hans is a good egg.
...and I didn't even have to mention any names. Them guys are some of the best in the business, and have been battling NY States rogue gun laws for decades. I am hoping that we can turn the tables on the government here, and turn this back into a friendly state, not only for gun owner's, but for business as well.
This state has not only been hostile toward just the firearms industry, but other's as well...Kodak, and Xerox both are a fraction, of less than 1/10th of what they used to be in Rochester, and that goes for B&L as well.
Best
The Attorney General, of NY State, and the Governor has told him, that they will set up a check point to monitor incoming, SAFE ACT violators, just inside NY.
Making vague threats doesn't mean they're actually DOING this. Apparently, the State of NY doesn't even have enough money budgeted to setup the ammo database the law requires, and because of that, the whole SAFE act itself can't really be enforced, at least not yet. So what sort of "checkpoint" are they possibly going to set up?
The Cuomo goons are going to physically inspect every single incoming vehicle into the State of NY looking for ammo that could POSSIBLY be sold illegally later? (Again, the law doesn't' ban importation of ammo, and it doesn't even require registration of imported ammo. . .only registration of ammo sold commercially IN STATE).
Good luck with THAT. . .50 **MILLION** vehicles enter NY State every year across the George Washington bridge ALONE, and many of the borders (eg with Vermont and PA, where ammo is effectively over the counter for anyone who wants to buy it) are FAR less controlled/inspected.
Threats by these pols are just that. . .if they were actually DOING anything along these lines, they wouldn't be talking about it, they'd be issuing indictments, which speak a LOT louder then words.
quote:
I am telling you guys, here on this forum this, as the MAJOR BACKER, has enough $$$ laid away, to bankrupt most any competition/competitor/company/opposistion in court. They have threatened frivilous law suits to out of state vendors, and to those who do not comply with their demands...legal or not. That is right, they don't care if it is legal, because a bankrupt opposistion is harmless. Their eye, is on the big ticket. They are going to front a run for POTUS, and that is what Cuomo and Bloomberg, are planting the foundation for.
Legal threats are the MO of these "activist" AGs. That's how they shut down ammo "importation" into the State of MA. The State basically threatened and harassed the largest commercial ammo sellers (eg Cabelas's etc) claiming ammo sales into MA were prohibited, even though there really is no actual applicable law prohibiting the sales to MA firearms ID card holders. Since there weren't many sales into MA anyway, rather than fight the AGs, these companies just agreed not to sell ammo into MA. But there are still smaller sellers (who kept their heads down and mouths shut) who will sell ammo LEGALLY into MA to anyone who has a valid MA firearms ID.
In any case, legal harrassment aside, I for one, WELCOME the incipient Presidential campaigns of Misters Cuomo and/or Bloomberg. (Infighting between the Cuomos and Clintons should be particularly entertaining to watch).
Gun control talk is good to suck money out of leftist Democrat party donors, but those issues are MAJOR LOSERs on a national level, as are the sort of extortionate "hardball" tactics that have become the norm for NY State Attorney's General. Even Obama was careful not to talk about gun control when he was running for POTUS, and supposedly the national Dem organization just told Bloomberg to STFU on the gun control talk right now.
Gun control barely even passes public muster **IN** NY State. . .if it did the NY legislature wouldn't have had to pass this POS "SAFE" act secretly without debate in the middle of the night.
FWIW, do you remember the last former NY State AG to hold a Federal elected office? That was Jacob Javitz. . .a REPUBLICAN. . .who was elected US Senator for NY in 1957. We'll see what happens to Cuomo, but the position didn't work out too well for Eliot Spitzer's Presidential ambitions.
quote:This is not just NY State's fight. If it is not stopped, it will end up in all of your hands too.See above. While Post Newtown, the gun control ratchet has recently tightened in a few leftist New England States, with a few of the usual exceptions (eg CA) the general trend across the majority of other states has been in the opposite direction. . .general liberalizaton of gun control laws.
What happens in NY simply isn't readily exportable to other States.
quote:Moderators, I believe that this thread belongs in the political forum, or the GD forum, at the very least.
That's for sure.
A friend of mine, owns a company that I have been doing business with for 30 plus years. The company is one of the MAJOR arms, ammunition, and accesories distributor's, in the North East, and is located in one of the largest cities, in NY. Upon the enactment of the SAFE ACT, he purchased a location, just across the border of NYS, to the south. He now has two locations, in that other state, both are retail stores.
The Attorney General, of NY State, and the Governor has told him, that they will set up a check point to monitor incoming, SAFE ACT violators, just inside NY.
I do not know, how this is going to play out, as they keep making theior adjustments, of how they want the law to be. There are several law suits in place, to repeal all, or part of this, as er call it, the UN-SAFE ACT(S.A.F.E. ACT). Some of the leading parties bringing these suits are, the NYS Rifle, and Pistol Association, SCOPE(Shooter's Committee On Political Education), the NYS Sheriffs Association, some of the county Sheriffs individually(including the Sheriff of our county, who happens to be my cousin), some of the county clerks, just so you have an idea.
The Governor, Attorney General, and their major backer, Mr. Bloomberg, have threatened political retribution, for all elected officials who voice opposistion, to their agenda.
I am telling you guys, here on this forum this, as the MAJOR BACKER, has enough $$$ laid away, to bankrupt most any competition/competitor/company/opposistion in court. They have threatened frivilous law suits to out of state vendors, and to those who do not comply with their demands...legal or not. That is right, they don't care if it is legal, because a bankrupt opposistion is harmless. Their eye, is on the big ticket. They are going to front a run for POTUS, and that is what Cuomo and Bloomberg, are planting the foundation for.
This is not just NY State's fight. If it is not stopped, it will end up in all of your hands too.
Moderators, I believe that this thread belongs in the political forum, or the GD forum, at the very least.
Best
Hans is a good egg.