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Selling a Norinco NHM-90

TheBrassManTheBrassMan Member Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭
edited January 2014 in Ask the Experts
I need to ask if it is legal to sell a Norinco NHM-90 "Pre-Ban"?
We have had it listed but are getting flack for it saying it is illegal to sell.
Here is the listing link:
http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=385917758
I have taken it taken the auction down until I get clarification.
Thank you for your input.
If it is okay to list and sell we will relist it at a lower price.

Comments

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    llamallama Member Posts: 2,637 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Perfectly legal here in Florida, and many other states.

    I wouldn't think of selling to California, New York, or a few other states that have state level bans, but I see your auction listing already covers that.
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    ammo guyammo guy Member Posts: 810 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    There is nothing illegal as such about the gun. The '94 ban is no longer in force. It might be illegal in certain state's or cities but not in a general sense.
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    TheBrassManTheBrassMan Member Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That is what I thought. Here is the the last email this one person sent me through the GunBroker Message system.
    quote:Btw, if an ATF 'Compliance Officer' SEES that NHM-90 with no thumbhole stocks & a Chinese buttstock without 5 U.S. Parts, per 18 USC 922(r) - you could become a FELON & LOSE your rights to SELL/OWN GUNS !!!
    Here is another this person sent me.
    quote:You're NEVER SELL that 'POST BAN' NHM-90 WITHOUT a bayonet lug or pistol grip - per 18 USC 922(g)
    As far as I always knew if it was imported before the 94 Ban(Pre-Ban)
    it could be sold as is.
    I have not looked up the codes he is quoting yet.
    I know it was imported before 1994, because it was on display in my father-in-laws shop
    before January 1994.
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    beantownshootahbeantownshootah Member Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by TheBrassMan
    That is what I thought. Here is the the last email this one person sent me through the GunBroker Message system.
    quote:Btw, if an ATF 'Compliance Officer' SEES that NHM-90 with no thumbhole stocks & a Chinese buttstock without 5 U.S. Parts, per 18 USC 922(r) - you could become a FELON & LOSE your rights to SELL/OWN GUNS !!!


    Beware advice from armchair "lawyers" (including myself).

    Edit: This hypothetical ATF compliance officer must have AWFULLY sharp eyesight to see inside the gun's receiver to determine whether or not the internal parts are marked "USA" or not.

    My understanding is that section 922R (which is what your emailer is presumably talking about) only applies to the CONSTRUCTION of illegal-configuration weapons. To wit:

    quote:18 U.S.C. ? 922(r)

    It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to -

    (1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or

    (2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.

    Did you "assemble" this gun from parts?
    No?
    Then 922R doesn't apply, and this individual doesn't know what they're talking about.

    In general, its illegal to build a gun on a foreign receiver into a configuration that would be illegal to import. . .unless said gun has only a limited number of foreign made parts (usually expressed as a given number of American made parts). The point is to make it illegal to circumvent importation of illegal configuration guns by importing them as parts then assembling them in the USA.

    If the gun was imported in a given configuration, you can still keep it in that configuration.

    Also, to be clear, the rule is only against ASSEMBLY of said gun. Once assembled (even illegally) its not illegal to POSSESS a gun like that. Its also not illegal (under Federal law) to SELL a gun like that, or to BUY one.

    In terms of felony conviction, my understanding is that nobody has EVER actually been criminally convicted of an 922A violation. Its just too hard for the BATFE to prove beyond a reasonable doubt who assembled or modified any gun (let alone prove beyond a reasonable doubt the manufacturing provenance of individual parts!), and bluntly, since the law itself is basically a bunch of BS, they don't even bother to try.

    What I've been told is that in practice should the BATFE encounter these types of illegally constructed guns, and feel the need to act, they just confiscate them. That itself is probably illegal, but in practice, nobody wants to fight the BATFE over a $400-800 weapon, so it happens anyway.

    quote:Edit: Mark Christian
    The gray area has already been pointed out by beantown: Someone else did the modifications and not you so technically you are not on the hook for any violation. Resale is another matter and if you are a dealer you take a much greater risk than Joe Blow.
    Well, either selling these non 992r compliant guns is legal or it isn't, right? Is there a specific reason you believe said sale would be illegal? If its not illegal, why should there be any risk involved?

    Are you aware of the BATFE persecuting (distinct from prosecuting) anyone for 922r non-compliance? To your knowledge, has this ever really been an issue for individual buyers or sellers on the auction site here?

    This doesn't seem to be a "gray area" where the regulation is ambiguous. So far as I can tell, nothing in the applicable regulation (and note 922R isn't even a "law", its a Federal Regulation) indicates that selling, buying, or even possessing 922R non-compliant guns is illegal.

    922R matters if you're building or modifying guns, especially in quantity for commercial sale. If you look at the BATFE website, they cite 922R in that context. If you're not building or modifying guns, I don't see why you'd need to worry about this.

    I'm not really not trying to be a wise-* with this, but asking for your experience here. Are you aware of any instances where the BATFE has actually acted to block or even investigate any individual sale of a post-importation modified non 992R compliant gun by a dealer or anyone else?

    Of course they won't let CAI (for example) import a bunch of parts and build then sell large numbers of non-compliant guns, but that's sort of a different issue/question. If they become aware of people doing the illegal ASSEMBLY of these guns, particularly in quantity intended for large scale commercial sale, they can and will act.

    Again, my understanding is that the BATFE doesn't want to draw attention to the Holland-tunnel sized "loophole" in 922R (that only assembly is illegal) because doing so would effectively take most of the "teeth" out of the regulation. "Some say" they also don't ever want an individual criminal case brought for judicial review, because 922r itself might then fall apart under legal scrutiny. (EG what legal purpose is served by permitting gun X with 10 American parts, but not with 9, where did that number come from, and why?).

    I can tell you as a matter of practice, that (say, unlike illegal machine guns, silencers, NFA guns, etc) people buy and sell these non 922R-compliant configuration weapons openly all the time. Its been a few years, but I remember walking into a gunshow once and seeing one seller with a literal table full of modified almost certainly non 922R compliant SKS rifles for sale with Tapco pistol-grip telescoping stocks on them. Obviously seeing them for sale doesn't by itself make the sale legal, but it says something about how much real enforcement there is here.

    I "suspect" there "might be" tons of these sorts of guns listed right now for sale on the auction site (of course not having X-ray vision, it would be impossible for me or anyone else to determine 922R compliance status just by looking at the OUTSIDE of a rifle. . .).

    The point is, unless they can prove who manufactured any given non-compliant gun, I just don't think the BATFE has a legal leg to stand on in chasing individuals over individual gun 922R non-compliance, and more to the point, so far as I can tell, they usually don't try to. If anyone knows different, about BATFE policy/history with respect to this, I'd love to hear it.
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    mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,456 ******
    edited November -1
    Pre ban for imported semi automatic rifles is pre-1989, the start of the Bush Ban. Don't confuse the 1994 Crime Bill, which has expired, with the Bush Ban, which remains in force. In order to add a pistol grip or any of the other banned features to an imported semi auto a certain number of parts must be exchanged with parts made in the USA; known as 922r.

    The gray area has already been pointed out by beantown: Someone else did the modifications and not you so technically you are not on the hook for any violation. Resale is another matter and if you are a dealer you take a much greater risk than Joe Blow.
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    dcs shootersdcs shooters Member Posts: 10,969
    edited November -1
    Can't see anything illegal about it. The bayo lug off don't mean a thing as one won't fit over the muzzle brake [^]
    Relist it and don't listen to fools [;)]
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    GrasshopperGrasshopper Member Posts: 16,809 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dcs shooters
    Can't see anything illegal about it. The bayo lug off don't mean a thing as one won't fit over the muzzle brake [^]
    Relist it and don't listen to fools [;)]


    My thought exactly,,,Sell it! A dealer will have to accept it and you have a lot more covered in your description about where you are not shipping-
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    nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,881 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    There is no need to limit your possible buyers by listing states/localities to which you will not ship. Federal law permits both licensees & non-licensees to transfer a firearm to a dealer in any state. Dealers can usually possess guns not permitted in their own state, & sometimes buy guns have customers in other states.

    You need to indicate in your ad: "Be sure that your dealer will accept shipment from a nonlicensee; I will include a photocopy of my drivers license with the gun."

    Personally, I would only sell guns from my personal GB account, not with my business account. Your primary business is reloading components, but you also sell some guns; to the fellas with the bulges in the cheap suits, this may look like "dealing without an FFL". Be careful.

    Neal
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    gary wraygary wray Member Posts: 4,663
    edited November -1
    After reading this and seeing your 90 I went to my gunsafe and got mine out. Mine is called a "Sporter" and does have a thumbhole stock and no bayo nor muzzlebrake. Never have fired it, got it years ago so yours looks like it was either made in in China before mine or someone has "worked" on it. I don't know that answer but perhaps you can research the factory.....mine was made at factory 388. Neal has given you the right advice...armchair lawyers can make you lose your hair!
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    SilentRageSilentRage Member Posts: 103 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a Mak -90 that I bought with a thumbhole stock. I hated it, so I replaced it with a pistol grip and new buttstock then added a muzzle brake. Is this illegal to do? If, so, I will put the thumbhole stock back on. Its a Mak-90 sporter. I think its post -ban, but no 100% sure.
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