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Custom Gun Serial Numbers
rockton
Member Posts: 551 ✭✭✭
What is allowed and not allowed as to removing serial numbers from weapons when they are engraved?
Also, custom rifles, how are theu regulated or registered or do they not need to be registered?
Just wondering.
Thanks
Rockton
Also, custom rifles, how are theu regulated or registered or do they not need to be registered?
Just wondering.
Thanks
Rockton
Comments
However, IIRC, you may not remove or alter the serial number on the receiver of the firearm. It might be permissible to remove it in one place and restamp the number elsewhere on the receiver.
I'm not sure what you mean by "custom rifle." If you're talking about one you built for yourself out of barstock, you have manufactured a firearm; there are a whole host of legal issues dealing with that alone, from being a licensed manufacturer, to paying an 11% federal excise tax, etc. There are some exceptions that allow a person to make a limited number of firearms per year for personal use that can NEVER be sold/transferred to anyone, but you should really get an attorney to find out about that.
If you mean "custom" by having someone take a Remington 700 action and put a Shilen or other custom barrel on it and putting it in a spiffy stock, there's no problem. The action you buy will have a serial number on it. There's no federal registration requirement, so any other registration would be up to the laws in your state. Consult your local attorneys on this one too.
One of the services NRA provides to members is a referral to attorneys in your state. If you're not already a member, join up and give them a call.
Engravers will typically block off the serial # and not touch it or modify it in any way. ATF is tempramental about that...very tempramental, * even. lol
Annoy a liberal by working hard and being happy.
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SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
"For better understanding, forget the BATF website; it's hard to navigate, virtually useless, and the info contained therein is subject to change, so it won't necessarily save your butt in court"
This is the second response that I've read with your name on it that contains misinformation. The title of this forum is "Ask the Experts" and judging by your responses you are not. Your quote above, about the ATF website illustrates clearly that you don't have the facility to read and comprehend the ATF's statements that we all use as guidelines for doing business within their framework. You need to spend time reading it carefully or have some else read it and explain the rules to you. It is clear to most of us.
"Second, I am not an attorney, so this is not a legal opinion, nor should it be considered one, nor is it a statement of law. This information is not to be relied on in any way, shape or form."
You can say that again! At least you prefaced your misinformation with a disclaimer.
- You can ship firearms through the U.S. Mail and ATF lists the procedures on their website.
- You can "manufacture" a custom receiver for a custom firearm for your personal use and sell it at a later date, legally. New rule interpretation from ATF listed on their site. Call them for further clarification. You do not pay the 11% tax since individuals don't have a business license because you are not in business to manufacture.You are only selling a personal firearm on a "rare" occassion. Final interpretation is left up to the ATF. Call first and get a letter of approval.
- You do not need an attorney to tell you what the ATF site says. If you don't understand what is written, call the Main Office and get an official statement from an agent. They are still civil servants that our tax dollars pay for and they will give you an honest answer. The ones that I have spoken with have been terrifically helpful and courteous.
Remember, no information is better than misinformation.
Regards.
I would like to make one point on what you have said. Those ATF agents that I have had contact with in person or by telephone have also been quite helpful and knowlegeable BUT the info given this way is unofficial. Try to get something in writing and you may find the spirit of cooperation quickly coming to an end. If a 'specific' interpretation of a rule is requested in writing you may eventually get it from someone further up the food chain but it won't be quick.
The ATF rules and regs are written in such a way as to be VERY vague about most things and subject to interpretation by whoever the enforcement official is. If you call three different ATF offices and talk to three different agents, the chances are quite good that you will get three different answers. This is a problem with many government agencies.
AN ARMED SOCIETY IS A POLITE SOCIETY
I agree whole heartedly! I should have made it more obvious in my response as I just stated "Call first and get a letter of approval." Any question that you feel is not covered adequately by the ATF site or in their written rules should be addressed by phone and followed up in writing or send a registered letter first and wait for a reply. If you start by phone, make sure that you get the agent's name and the office that they are working from. Keep a record of the conversation.
Lots of things have changed since the reorganization and not all of them good I'm sure. We have a responsibility to understand and follow the rules as written but if something is not clear or straight forward, they (ATF) have to take up the challenge of getting it straightened out. I realize that they have increased responsibilities other than just FFL rules and regulations but it is still a fairly major part of their job. They are servants of the people and as such are responsible to us. Idealistic, I know, but it's true.
If you have information as to the "spirit of cooperation quickly coming to an end", please let us know. Any and all help will be appreciated. Thanks!
Regards.
One statement that I believe needs clarification concerns the mailing of firearms. ATF P5300.4, page 136, (B8) states: "A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. Handguns are not mailable." If you believe that this is no longer correct, I'd appreciate the source of that information.
As for individuals making a firearm, the web site contains the same information as ATF P5300.4, page 135, (A7): "With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms." I was unable to find any information updating this determination; if it has been changed, please let us know where to find that update.
You should be aware that the only way to get a written response from ATF concerning a specific firearm is to write to: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Firearms Technology Branch, Room 6450, 650 Massachusetts Ave, NW, Washington, DC 20226. They will not send a written response based on a phone call. And, it does you no good to record the name of any ATF agent from whom you get advice; it has no legal standing, & many of them will even tell you that.
Neal
[?]
ATF
It is legal to ship long guns via the U.S. Mail as long as the "ship to" address is an FFL holder. I take the signed FFL copy with me to show the counter clerk if necessary. I had to open one (1) package, one time and thereafter, haven't had a problem. I also keep a copy of the ATF rules with me when I go to either the Post Office or UPS. I have had numerous problems with UPS, so I haul out the rules and then ask to see a supervisor. Counter people at UPS operate on their own ideas of rules and the real rules have to be read to them. My Post Office doesn't seem to have rule problems as they appear to be reasonably well trained and they have been very cooperative.
Regards.