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Tokarev 7.62x25 vs ACH Lv3a Helmet?
StoBtruppen
Member Posts: 278 ✭✭✭
Anyone know if the Tokarev 7.62x25 pistol round will penetrate the ACH Lv3a Helmet or not?
Its already known that the round will penetrate the Pasgt Lvl 2 Helmet, but there doesnt seem to much info when it comes to the ACH Lv3a Helmet and if it can stop the round or not.
thanks
Its already known that the round will penetrate the Pasgt Lvl 2 Helmet, but there doesnt seem to much info when it comes to the ACH Lv3a Helmet and if it can stop the round or not.
thanks
Comments
The Czech steel core 7.62 X 25 ammo supposedly ran 1500+ FPS, from the CZ 52. Even more from their submachine guns.
http://www.bulletproofme.com/NIJ_Test_Rounds_CHART.shtml
IMHO no. It's rated for 124 grain 9mm @ 1400 FPS. Per this link.
The Czech steel core 7.62 X 25 ammo supposedly ran 1500+ FPS, from the CZ 52. Even more from their submachine guns.
http://www.bulletproofme.com/NIJ_Test_Rounds_CHART.shtml
So 'no' the Tokarev 7.62x25 pistol round will 'not' penetrate the ACH Lv3a Helmet then, or 'no' the helmet cant withstand the higher velocity and the round would penetrate it?
Here is a level IIIa helmet ballistics chart that I found a while back that actually included the 7.62x25 Tokarev but looks to be European and not sure how accurate it is though...
Here is another level IIIa helmet ballistics chart but doesnt include the Tokarev 7.62x25 but shows a significantly high fps rating.
thanks
The bullet weight for the 7.62 X 25 is approximately 85 grains. Which works out to 5.5 grams, not 8.5 grams.
Also the muzzle velocity given is 445 m/s. Which works out to approximately 1450 FPS.
The Czech steel core ammo weighs approximately 85 grains. And has a muzzle velocity of over 1500 FPS.
EDIT #1,
If you are intent on buying a expensive helmet. I would ask the manufacturer for specific assurance, that the Czech steel core military ammo wont penetrate it.
There is a lot of commercial 7.62 X 25 ammo on the market now. They don't have steel cores like the Czech ammo. Also probably the velocities are lower. To make it lawyer proof, if someone tried to shoot it in a old Mauser broomhandle.
I don't believe that the first chart you posted is correct.
The bullet weight for the 7.62 X 25 is approximately 85 grains. Which works out to 5.5 grams, not 8.5 grams.
Also the muzzle velocity given is 445 m/s. Which works out to approximately 1450 FPS.
The Czech steel core ammo weighs approximately 85 grains. And has a muzzle velocity of over 1500 FPS.
I thought that it looked off as well...
So then the Tokarev 7.62x25 pistol round should penetrate the ACH Lv3a Helmet then given the Level IIIa info or no it would not?
One would think that just because a given piece of armor will stop bullet "A" that it will stop bullet "B", but the fact is, it doesn't work that way.
Differences in bullet construction, weight, and velocity matter. . .even differences between different loads in the same nominal cartridge. Lightweight bullets at high velocity tend to defeat armor better than heavier ones at lower velocity. . .not sure why, but empirically, its true. Also, if you're talking specifically about helmets, where a bullet strikes it and at what angle and distance can also potentially play a role here.
If you really want to know if a given 7.62x25 round will penetrate a given helmet, then the only way to get a definitive "yes" or "no" answer is to get a pistol, load it with the round in question, then shoot the helmet in question and find out.
Edit:
quote: not sure either why the question cant be definitely answered
See above. Because 7.62x25 isn't a commonly encountered round in North America, and there simply isn't a lot of interest in this marketplace. Again, the only way to really know for sure is to do the test. Anything other than that is speculative.
If the manufacturer *HAS* already done this test, and the helmet stands up, you'd think they'd be happy to tell you that. If they *HAVEN'T* done it, then you'll have to do it yourself, or at least find someone else who has done it.
The question was asked since this is a gun forum and there is relatively little to no info on the subject, the round is a very powerful pistol round and still widely used and the Russians claim that certain helmets in the Russian military will defeat the 7.62x25 Tokarev pistol round.
Its already known that the american pasgt Lvl II helmet will not stop the 7.62x25 Tokarev pistol round and so being the ACH Lvl3a Helmet would be the next relatively simple and logical choice to inquire about before spending $290+.
My experience with punching holes in steel and penetration consider straight in shot vs. a glancing one. How long has the bullet traveled, because at short range the higher velocity with the bullet not asleep in its orbit doesn't enhance penetration.
I don't believe that the first chart you posted is correct.
The bullet weight for the 7.62 X 25 is approximately 85 grains. Which works out to 5.5 grams, not 8.5 grams.
Also the muzzle velocity given is 445 m/s. Which works out to approximately 1450 FPS.
The Czech steel core ammo weighs approximately 85 grains. And has a muzzle velocity of over 1500 FPS.
EDIT #1,
If you are intent on buying a expensive helmet. I would ask the manufacturer for specific assurance, that the Czech steel core military ammo wont penetrate it.
There is a lot of commercial 7.62 X 25 ammo on the market now. They don't have steel cores like the Czech ammo. Also probably the velocities are lower. To make it lawyer proof, if someone tried to shoot it in a old Mauser broomhandle.
You do seem to get what you pay for and the ECH helmet manufacturer claims that it will stop certain rifle rounds although there were reportedly several failures during testing but the helmet was pushed through anyway which is about the right speed of the u.s. gov/mil. Regardless the ECH helmet is currenlty unavailable for now so all thats left is the ACH helmet which I am researching and the modern Russian helmets that reportedly will stop the Tokarev 7.62x25.
I have tried to talk to the helmet manufacturers and they never respond because I wont order 100 at a time or such; anyway I just wanted to see if anyone here might know.
I did get some good info out of it though and may need to just buy a used ACH helmet I guess and test it; being that one of my carry pieces are the Yugo Tokarev M57 and then report back the findings.
Edit:quote:Originally posted by stobtruppen
not sure either why the question cant be definitely answered
See above. Because 7.62x25 isn't a commonly encountered round in North America, and there simply isn't a lot of interest in this marketplace. Again, the only way to really know for sure is to do the test. Anything other than that is speculative.
If the manufacturer *HAS* already done this test, and the helmet stands up, you'd think they'd be happy to tell you that. If they *HAVEN'T* done it, then you'll have to do it yourself, or at least find someone else who has done it.
Its a common round used by the alleged enemies of the u.s. government and as stated its a personal carry round of mine in the Yugo M57 Tokarev using jhp rounds due to its destructive capabilities over many other rounds.
Helmet companies really should include the Tokarev round in their testing since they test another pistol round in the 9x19mm also used by the alleged enemies of the u.s. government.
Anyway again yeah I will have to test the 7.62x25 Tokarev on the ACH lv3a helmet myself apparently and will have to report back on what the findings are.