"Sanitized" Weapons

shootnstar

Anyone got info on "sanitized" U.S.Military weapons from WWII that had few or no markings. I'm refering to M1 Carbines, Thompson SMG's, Liberator pistols,M3 SMG's, etc that were dropped behind the lines for resistance fighters. Also those that were dropped into Laos early in the Vietnam conflict. Any info or sources appreciated.

IAMACLONE_2

Try subguns.com in the NFA section.
Liberator pistols NIB go for about $2,000
Thompsons $15,000 & up
Walte

shootnstar

Actually only looking for historical or published information. Mostly interested in info on weapons supplied by OSS during WWII and CIA/Air America during Laotian operations during Vietnam conflict.

sck

Dear Shoot:
The word "sanitized" isn't really accurate when it comes to weapons dropped behind the lines during WWII. Yes, there was the Liberator pistol, but it wasn't "sanitized" in the sense that we didn't mark any of the them out of concern that the Germans would figure out who supplied them. The Germans really didn't care where the weapons came from that were used by partisans, so there was no political advantage to be derived from "sanitizing" them. When you go through the lists of 1911A1's supplied to the government, you'll find several hundred serial numbers that were shipped to the OSS, and every once in a while one turns up for sale. And, I'm told the same is case with a few other weapons in the U.S. arsenal that went to the OSS. The only reason that these weapons are recognizable today is that some bean counter of a bureaucrat during WWII wanted to make sure that everything was accounted for properly. It wasn't part of any clandestine effort or anything like that.

However, in an earlier instance, the U.S. governments clandestine efforts almost led to an international incident. In the period before the Spanish-American War, some genius at in Washington decided that we could help the insurgents in the Phillipines by supplying them with weapons. Well, whoever this guy was he realized that if we supplied them with the rifle then used by the U.S., the Krag, it would be kind of obvious who supplied them when they were captured by the Spanish. Not wanting to give the Spanish any political ammunition, this fellow decided to purchase a bunch of rifles on the open market. He eventually settled on German Mausers, and had them transported to the Phillipines and distributed. Fast forward a little and the U.S. wins the war against Spain and takes control of the Phillipines, but then not all the natives are happy with the new colonial masters. As a result there are occasional incidents that eventually flair into open rebellion. During some of those clashes the U.S. troops discover that the bad guys are using German Mausers. The obvious conclusion was that the Germans were supporting the rebels and attempting to destabilze the U.S. control of the islands. There were a few dozen newspaper stores that were usually feed by militiary types in the islands, who didn't like the fact that the bad guys had better rifles than the ones we were using. But they soon stopped issuing statements when somebody back in Washington explained to the military that while they were German rifles, they were in the hands of the rebels because the U.S. put them there and the less said the better. This story is a little earlier than you asked for, but I thought you might like it. Best of luck -- Steve

Ampersand

I think that most of the time a military gun with no serial number is actually stolen from the plant by a worker. I understand that this happened all the time. I have heard that some bolt action rifles sometimes turn up with no serial numbers that were supposedly used by the CIA for assassinations and other counter-intelligence work overseas. Who knows?

&

queeksdraw

The US Army was never in Laos. And there was never a Air America there. We did not give any weapons to any one. I know, because I wasn't there.


You'v gota kill it to grill it

shootnstar

The main reason for my asking is that I recently examined a retired military officer's collection of NFA firearms and included in it was an M2 Carbine and a Thompson M1 SMG that had only a few markings with no manufacturers markings at all. These weapons were acquired pre-68 and documentation(military authorization form to "bring back") with them supported the "story" I was told about them.

Prebanparts

i guess only officers could bring back NFA Weapons...rest of us had to smuggle them

Xracer

If you're interested in unmarked "military" weapons, go to the Hartford, CT area. There are a bunch of unmarked M1911s & A1s floating around (as well as other assorted Colts), but the only thing clandestine about them is the way they left the factory......a few pieces at a time in lunch buckets.

They're known locally as "Factory Seconds" or "Lunch Bucket Guns".

shootnstar

AGAIN, I'm not interested in purchasing actual "unmarked" firearms. Not interested in information about firearms stolen from manufacturers or from government stores. ONLY looking for historical or published information concerning weapons that had few, unusual, or no markings that were supplied to unconvientional forces by the U.S. Government since WWII.
Examples would be but not limited to:
-Thompson SMG's shipped into China prior to Pearl Harbor.
-M1 Carbines shipped into Laos in early 1960's
-M1 Carbines stamped with serial# and manufacturers name on recoil plate.
There are many other firearms that could fall into this category such as M14's made by commercial company Springfield Armory in 1980's that ended up in western Africa or captured firearms like those liberated in Panama 1989 and ending up who knows where. Any personal accounts or reference material greatly appreciated. Many thanks SCK for a great reply.

mark christian

As you are no doubt aware, the best known of the "black" guns were the Guide Lamp Liberator pistols. The history of these guns is so well known that I won't bother to talk about them. One of the least known or seen firearms employed by the OSS was the Marlin UDM 42 submachinegun. This was a 9mm selective fire weapon designed by Carl Swebilus, the founder of High Standard and aprrox. 15,000 of these sub machineguns were produced by Marlin Firearms. Originally these guns were supposed to be shipped to the Netherlands Purchasing Commission for use in the Dutch West Indies. Some were shipped out but after the Dutch capitulated the remaining guns were taken over by the United Defense Supply Corp., an OSS front company owned by the US Government. These guns were dropped through out Europe and the CBI theater in the early part of the war but since these Marlins were expensive to produce (the same cost as a Thompson) they were soon replaced by STEN guns when these became available in sufficent quantities for clandestine air drops. The UDM 42 is a very rare gun here in the USA as nearly all went over seas and never came back home- I've seen only one example in private hands. These guns were not sanitized and were clearly marked with the name and address of the manufacturer as well as a serial number. Even weapons such as the High Standard MD-MS silenced pistols used by the OSS were serialized and clearly marked with the High Standard roll mark as well as being stamped U.S. PROPERTY. sck covered the reasoning behind not covering up the origin of WWII OSS weapons--the Germans and Japanese would have guessed where these guns had come from even if they'd been stamped: MADE IN COSTA RICA.

When Viet Nam rolled around there were plenty of ex OSS operatives in the then new CIA and they felt the need for an updated version of the Liberator pistol, nearly all of which had been lost in action or destroyed after the end of WWII. A program was begun by the CIA in 1962 to develope and field a very cheap "throw away" pistol for use in assasinations and other nasty jobs in SE Asia. The winning design came from Russell Moure, an engineer from AMF (yes, the bowling ball people), who were very active in the firearms industry back in those days. The pistol, known as the Deer Gun, for the CIA "Deer Missions" {assasinations} then on going in SE Asia, was made of cast aluminum and had a 9mm caliber barrel, 2" in length and had to be unscrewed to load and unload. At the rear of the receiver there was a cocking plunger which was pulled back to cock the striker. When you pulled the trigger the gun fired in true zip gun fasion and then you had to unscrew the barrel, find a stick to poke out the spent case, then take another live round out of the trap in the grip, and repeat the entire firing process again if needed (hopefully not).

About 1,000 of these pistols were made at a cost of $4 per unit and 200 were actually field tested in Viet Nam with Phoenix operatives and others who felt the need for such a firearm. Although these pistols worked fine, they proved the concept of the semi disposable pistol to be of little real value since it was just as easy to issue and carry a far more capable semi automatic pistol or revolver. In the end most of the deer Guns were scrapped and I have never actually seen an example in private hands--these would be NFA any other weapons since they have smooth bores. It became quite clear to the CIA during the early days in Viet Nam that US made surplus military and commercial firearms were so well destributed around the world that there was really no valid reason to try to hide the origin of weapons carried by CIA field agents and further time and efforts into these types of programs soon died out.





Mark T. Christian