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7.62-25

spasmcreekspasmcreek Member Posts: 37,717 ✭✭✭
edited June 2003 in Ask the Experts
i purchased a polish tokarev pistol in this caliber & seems to smoke them out quite well but i do not have any ballistic info such as mv...me... trajectory..ect...appreciate any info & opinions on this for fun shooter....thanks
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  • rufe-snowrufe-snow Member Posts: 18,650 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIIC2v1.html
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  • rusty1rusty1 Member Posts: 292 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    1350 to 1600 f.p.s depending on brand of ammo the old surplus is the hottest.

    rusty1
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  • kingjoeykingjoey Member Posts: 8,636
    edited November -1
    Try to stick to 7.62x25 Mauser spec ammo for the Tok. Some of the hotter stuff was designed for the PPSH and other subguns and can be fired in the CZ52 pistol which has a heavy-duty roller locked breech. The Tok was designed for the Soviet-spec ammo not the CZ52 spec ammo. Just be careful.[;)]

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  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The enemy in Korea made no distinction in ammunition for the PPsh41,the Suderev the Tokarev pistol or the various Mauser 96 and Schnellfeuer versions they used. It came in a 72 round box with a strip of paper snaked around the rows. The crimp was aided by three or four pinpoint indentations around the cartridge neck to keep bullets from backing into the cases. While 72 rounds was the drum capacity of the PPsh41, drums were quite rare. The 30-32 round stick magazines were much more widely used.
    It was all hot.
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  • mark christianmark christian Member Posts: 24,443 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In Soviet military service (and most of their client states) 7.62X25 ball ammunition came packaged two different ways: The first was a packet of 16 cartridges, enough to fill two reserve magazines for a TT pistol, wrapped in plain buff colored paper and tied with a string. 72 of these packets were found inside a metal "spam can" and two cans went into a wooden crate- making a total of 2,304 rounds.

    The other packaging style is exactly as described by V35 (glad to see you posting again!) and intended for use in single loading the drum magazine for a PPSh-41 submachinegun (I was surprised to learn the drums were not common in Korea and that is exactly why I enjoy reading your posts). In this case there are 16ea. 72 round cardboard boxes (I have also seen a sort of tar paper used) packed into the metal "spam can" and two cans to wooden box for a total of 2304 cartridges. There is ZERO difference in the cartridges contained inside these different packages no matter what firearms they were intended for. There was never seperate loading for submachine guns in Soviet service and I doubt any other countries went to the trouble to down load their cartridges for pistol use- as V35 says it was all loaded HOT!

    Information I gathered from friends in the Bulgarian Army during many visits to Eastern Europe indicate that their old 7.62X25 ball ammo (much of which was of Soviet origin) had a mean velocity of 460 meters per second; That is around 1,500+ FPS, and around 370 foot pounds of energy. The cartridge has a very flat trajectory (in my opinion). Although no longer a current military cartridge in Bulgaria, the 7.62X25 is encountered often enough that private Bulgarian security personel (who can afford the added expense since most are employed by the mafia) use special "Tokarov vests"; or body armor which will stop a 7.62X25 bullet which has a well earned reputation in Eastern Europe and Asia as a vest puncher.

    Mark T. Christian
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  • kingjoeykingjoey Member Posts: 8,636
    edited November -1
    Mark,
    I seem to recall the CZ52 originally using the Czech "48" cartridge that was 18-20% hotter than the regular Mauser or Tokarev loadings and was for the CZ52 only. Most of the Mauser/Tok ammo is fairly homogeneous (except for some with them damn hard primers[;)]), but the occasional lots of the M48 was the reason I was concerned. Any info on that ammo? There was a Soviet loading that was equal or a bit hotter than the Mauser (and dimensionally interchangable) and then there was the M48 that was a even higher pressure load. I'll dig up what info I can.[:)]

    edit: knew I had the designations wrong, too many years and beers, it all gets fuzzy sometimes[;)]

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  • kingjoeykingjoey Member Posts: 8,636
    edited November -1
    Found some info off the net, similar to what my old books at home have on the CZ.

    quote:The CZ52 was produced during the three years of 1952- 1954 by Czechoslovakia in answer to the then Soviet Bloc requirement for standard use of the 7.62x25mm cartridge. While other Soviet Bloc nations used the Tokarev TT33 pistol, the Czech's designed and built their own. The CZ52 is significant in that it was designed to use the M48 7.62x25mm cartridge a much more powerful cartridge than the standard 7.62x25mm. Because of this, ammunition for the CZ52 could not be used in the Tokarev TT33. Way ahead for it's time the CZ52 was the most powerful handgun before the term "magnum" took on marketing significance. This pistol was so advanced it was a closely guarded secret not available in the Western world for decades. Now, with the changing world the CZ52 is common. The CZ52 is the handgun with the lockup design of a carbine rifle.




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  • mark christianmark christian Member Posts: 24,443 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Now that is some interesting info Joey. I knew that Czech ammo was loaded hotter than the Soviet issue, but 18 to 20% more is incredible! I wonder how they managed to increase the power of the cartridge to such a degree without case seperations or the typical primer problems? With the information you've provided I suppose now this has become a "what came first, the chicken or the egg"? Did the Czech's already have a super hot 7.62X25 loading and design the CZ-52 pistol around the cartridge or did they develope the cartridge to take advantage of the CZ-52's super strong action?

    I do know that prior to adopting the CZ-52 the Czech's used TT-33 pistols supplied from Soviet stocks as well as new production from the old Polish Radom factory (which also built TT pistols for the East Germans). If the M48 on the cartridge you mention indicates its adoption in 1948 it must have been used in the Czech TT pistols- with what success we can only imagine. Was there a down loaded 7.62X25 for TT pistols in Czech military service? These Czech TT pistols remained in service during the transition to the CZ-52 and were held in reserve for many years after so I wonder if the caution on using M48 ammo in TT pistols you quoted off of the net came from old Czech military warnings or if it is more current? Very interesting at any rate.

    Mark T. Christian
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  • kingjoeykingjoey Member Posts: 8,636
    edited November -1
    I have an old pistols book from the 60's that had some info on the CZ52. If I recall the M48 was developed to take advantage of the strength of the CZ52. I'm guessing they were probably labelled or headstamped differently. Kinda like the old "carbine" cartridges for the Artillery (?) Lugers that were black to prevent use in regular Luger pistols due to having a charge 1/7 greater than the regular .30 Luger loads. I'll check the old catalog when I get home. I'm betting that most of the M48 ammo has long since been depleted, but you never know what you might pick up at a gun show anymore.[;)]

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  • kingjoeykingjoey Member Posts: 8,636
    edited November -1
    Mark,
    Dug out the old book last night and they seem to point to the M48 as being specific to the CZ52 and some other pistol (KZM 445?) and that its use in earlier pistols was very hazardous. They listed the Type P Soviet round as being interchangable with the Mauser and the M48 as averaging 20% higher. They had a lot of warnings floating around the net awhile back about some milsurp ammo floating around that was not recommended for the Tok due to the pressures, unfortunatelt I know jack-squat about foreign headstamps and wouldn't know a M48 (or any other specific load) if it bit me on the leg. Regardless, Some caution would be advisable, some of that stuff is just plain HOT.[;)]

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  • mark christianmark christian Member Posts: 24,443 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Very interesting information Joey and thank you for going to the trouble of locating the reference work on this subject. May I add that when you first came aboard here at GB late last year you were the subject of a lot of harrassment by members over on the general discussion forum and they made life tough for you over there (I am still not clear as to why). I have read your firearms related posts and you are clearly very knowledgable in the field of firearms and here on the experts side what you know about guns is all that matters!

    Mark T. Christian
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  • gruntledgruntled Member Posts: 8,218 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    When I had my C-96 rebuilt I was warned not to use any of the 7.62X25 ammo. They ( Briklee AKA Fedarms) claimed all the 7.62X25
    ammo was loaded hotter than the 7.63X25 Mauser.
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