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Browning 9mm Hi-Power Question? HELP
Spring Creek
Member Posts: 1,260 ✭
I've got a number of Browning Hi-Powers and thought I knew a "little" about them.
But, I bought one today that has me stumped as to when it was made.
It is "Browning" marked and not FN.
Naturally made in Belgium.
It is Tangent sighted (500 meter) and "slotted".
It's a "T" Series.
The "big stumper" is serial #- It's T361xxx.
Wondering when made.
The gentleman I bought it from bought it in 1975, but doesn't know how long before that it might have been made.
SO-I know it's '75 or before.
It's New Unfired and Holster/Stock, that i got with it, was not bought with the gun as it is a Pre-War Belgium.
All help appreciated.
But, I bought one today that has me stumped as to when it was made.
It is "Browning" marked and not FN.
Naturally made in Belgium.
It is Tangent sighted (500 meter) and "slotted".
It's a "T" Series.
The "big stumper" is serial #- It's T361xxx.
Wondering when made.
The gentleman I bought it from bought it in 1975, but doesn't know how long before that it might have been made.
SO-I know it's '75 or before.
It's New Unfired and Holster/Stock, that i got with it, was not bought with the gun as it is a Pre-War Belgium.
All help appreciated.
Comments
Your S. N. doesn't compute with the data shown on the Browning Web-Site, for H.P.'s sold by them, in the U.S..
http://www.browning.com/services/dategun/guns/highpowr.htm
These pistols are very rare and desireable to collectors and I'd NEVER let mine go...they'll bury me with this one in my hand. There were "T" models (this means a visible extractor) known as the Capitan imported by Browning which had the tangent sight (about 6000 or so, some estimate more) but the slotted versions are among the rarest and never cataloged. The original flat board stock with holster (is it brown, "orange", or mustard color?) adds considerable value to the pistol. There were some reproductions imported by Oden International 20 years ago using original FN hardware added to new wood, but now even these repros are selling in the $200 range because original factory flat boards are so rare.
So here is what I'd say you have: the pistol itself, if it is really new, is worth around $1500 and the flat board stock. if it is pre war, will sell for another $500 or more. Post war commercial stocks are even rarer (since by then no one wanted to bother with this pistol/carbine non sense) but are not as desireable and move for less money- maybe $400. A pre war stock on a post war pistol could be considered correct, but you simply cannot have a post war stock on a pre war pistol and have it look right. This was a fine purchase even if you had to pay the full retail prices which I mentioned (AND PLEASE DON"T TELL US HOW MUCH YOU PAID- I'd probably cry) as this pistol simply cannot be found without some deligent searching and even when one is located, prying out of the current owners hand is a hard and expensive proposition! There were actually four models of these pistols available and yours and mine were cataloged by FN as the model 2004. The 2001 was phosphate finished and had a lanyard loop on the bottom of the left grip, the 2003 was the same except it was blued, and the 2002 was phospate finish with no lanyard. These slotted Capitans were discontinued by FN in 1979 and the "T" series markings were eliminated in early 1970.
Mark T. Christian
Your expertise is "beyond compare".
I'm going to digress on this a little more and give you some more information.
Probably information that will be boring to many members.
Now that I have actually had a chance to look at the pistol more closely.....It is indeed unfired and as close to 100% as I could ask.
You know the serial # range and very interesting that yours is close in #.
This is what was confusing to me, in that: my only other "T" series Tangent (unslotted) is in the 259xxx range and that puts it in 1969-1970 range and naturally right before the "C" Series.
Nearly 100,000 below the Non-import.
This shows me that the "non-import" guns were not serial #'d "sychronized" with the USA import "T" series.
Also, I did not realize that there were the 4 models.
Mine has the high gloss blue and "black" plastic grips, where my "import" "T" series has the blonde walnut grips.
I have a couple NIP (new in pouch) 1976 "C" series Tangents, with the wood grips also.
More interesting information was learned also.
In fact: this pistol was bought in Belgium, in 1970 by a returning US Military Intelligence Officer who was returning from Vietnam and was in Europe for a "de-briefing".
It is thought that this same Officer was one of the first to die from what was "probably" Agent Orange effects.
Now where things get interesting, esp. for you being in California.
The estate of the man had the Hi-Power on consignment at:
The Grant Boys Gun Store #3 in La Puente, CA.
The gun was bought (I have the receipt in front of me) on 08-02-75 when the Grand Opening for this store was being held.
UH-YEAH for $350.00.Plus $21.00 sales tax
The person from who I purchased it, is the buyer on the receipt.
Now the stock/holster (which he bought later). I had not looked at it, when I "presumed" it was Pre-War and although nice, it is an Oden-I am thinking.
What had confused me was I was told and it does have the capital "C" in the "sqaure" box on the attachment metal.
This led me to believe (until I saw it) that it was pre-war, as one of my Pre-war Belgian Air-Force Military slotted/tangent Hi-Powers has this "acceptance" mark on it. This I will need to research further.
Regarding stocks:
With any of my stocked Hi-Powers, I have BATF letters stating the legality of attached stocks to pistols (wartime and Pre-war) with serial number BELOW 46,000.
So, what is your take in regards to "attached" holster/stock to pistol with this date of manf and serial #?
(OF COURSE) holster is not attached and "laid" beside the pistol.
Actually is, because I don't want to scratch the "perfect" slot.
As to the price paid, Mark.
I paid "plenty" for it and I would like to hit the "lotto", to help pay for it.
The seller has 5 more Hi-Powers that are all "rare" and it's helped me acquire nice and rare Hi-Powers for my collection, since I am known to pay "fair" prices for nice items and not "low-ball" a seller.
I could go on all day when it comes to my enjoyment of Hi-Powers and I'm sure some readers think I already have.
Mark, anymore thoughts are appreciated.
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It sounds as though our two "Capitans'" were probably made at the factory within the same few months (I am less than 4000 lower than your serial number) and may well have been purchased at near the same time! The fellow I bought the pistol from lived in Anaheim which is only a 10 minute drive from the City of Orange. $350 back in 1975 was still pretty pricey for a High Power as a brand new blued Browning retailed for about $175 back then if I remember correctly. In case you were not aware, there is now only one Grant Boys store remaining and it is in Costa Mesa and they are not a quality gun store any longer. You'd never come across anything like that High Power in Grant Boys these days...although they have a fine selection of Levi blue jeans and hip waders!
My own flat board stock is an Oden reproduction and it serves nicely. The issue of legality for the stocks is very touchy. Under the letter of the law these pistols would NOT be legal under the Gun Control Act of 1968 with the stocks attached. About 7 years ago I applied to the BATF to have these "T" series slotted "Capitians" exempted from the National Firearms Act and placed in the C&R catagory under SECTION III. I sighted the fact that identical pistols with serial numbers under T200,000 and bearing the crests of Muscat and Oman were already exempted. There is NO functional difference between the Muscat and Oman High Powers and any other T series "Capitan". Ed Owen, the chief of the Firearms Technology Branch, denied my request to have these pistols exempted form the NFA. He did however rule that these pistols with tangent sights and slotted for shoulder stocks were Curio and Relics if produced prior to 1973 so if you look in your C&R guide you'll find them listed there (see, you can get action from the BATFE). So these are now C&R firearms but you are still not allowed to attach the flat board stock. I figure I will try again to have these pistols exempted again in another couple of years. In the mean time, keep that stock off of your "Capitan". By the way Spring Creek, I anyone is bored by this discussion they do not understand the purpose of the ask the experts forum. I wish all discussions could be like this one rather than "What $300 AK should I buy?", "Are Bryco's good pistols"? or "What is the best possible shotgun I can purchase for under $200...are the Chinese 'Winchesters' worth the money"?
Mark T. Christian
Forgot to mention!!!!1
I'm in Nebraska and the collector who I
purchased the "Capitan" from is in Georgia.
He was living in La Puenta, CA in '75 when he bought it.
Do certainly have to agree with the stock/slotted laws.
There is a Muscat and Oman Hi-Power in the collection, that I plan to acquire.
Yes, I've seen them in a "Castroville, CA" collection and know that they are legal to attach.
Go Figure, as they say.
Take care