antique browning hi-power - do I have a jewel?

white_feather

I was at the range the other day shooting my Browning Hi-power 9mm, when the range marshall came over and asked to see my pistol. I handed over the (unloaded) pistol, and after he admired it for a few moments, he asked me if I knew what I had. I said that I knew that I had a Browning Hi-power with German markings on it. It has swastikas and eagles stamped on most of the major parts. I know that my Grandfather's best friend took it off of a North Korean officer which he had killed, and used it as an Army Ranger in the Korean war. He absolutely loved the pistol. He valued my Grandfather's friendship, and gave the pistol to him shortly before his death. I remember that my Grandfather would always let me carry it around the farm (unloaded) when I was a kid. I dreamed that I was John Wayne on the Island of Iwo Jima. It has hung in an army .45 holster for at least 20 years on his coat rack. This range Marshall told me that it was in pristine condition, and that he recommended that I had it refinished (either parkerized or fire-blued), and he said that I should find out the significance of the serial number. My questions to you "experts" are three-fold. #1) should I refinish the gun? Will it hurt the resale value? There is no major pitting or rust, but I would guess that the pistol would be worth more in it's original finish. #2) is there any way to trace the serial number to a Belgium-made Hi-power, and find out it's historical significance? #3) What would a pistol of this caliber (sorry about the pun, but I couldn't resist) be worth? This is my first time on this website, and I registered simply so that I could talk to people that know. If anyone has anything to tell me, please do. I would appreciate any help whatsoever. My email adress is johnhpowell@hotmail.com Or, just respond in this forum. Thank you in advance for your help.

perry shooter

DO NOT refinish!!!! As far as traceing the record never say never but I would not hold my breath. . 1n the 1940's and 1950's no one cared . It would be interesting to know how it got from Germany to Korea I know in WWII you had to have papers to bring a firearm back home ,same thing with Viet Nam .

roysclockgun

Well you do have a nice piece of history there. I would not refinish or scrub the original finish in any way. Shooting the pistol and proper cleaning is fine. Write down all the history that you know, to include the GIs name who captured the piece, unit, where captured, any "bring-back" papers and how you came by the piece via your grandfather. Researching via the internet will work to date the pistol. Usually on Third Reich firearms the year of manufacture follows the makers coded letters. Therefore BYF42 translates into Mauser Oberndorf 1942. My best guess is that the pistol was captured by Soviet troops and made it's way to Communist allies of the Soviets in N. Korea, from China. Even during the Vietnam War, Third Reich firearms showed up in the hands of the VietCong and main line NVA troops. In years to come the pistol will be even more precious to you, so the documentation that you can now write down is important to save, before memeories fade. You may, late in life want to pass the pistol along to a younger member of the family, along with the history and will then appreciate that you thought to preserve the history.

white_feather

Thank you for your educated replies. I will not refinish the gun. I will keep it clean, and continue to operate it responsibly. As to the papers: I hate to say this: ....there are none. It's kind of a long story, but the man who gave it to my Granddad died of cancer before there was any sort of paper transfer. If there are papers, which there very well may be, they would be hard, if not impossible to obtain. The serial number is W (The next letter/number is indistinguishable. It appears to be a very small symbol) A 1 4 0. By Roysclockguns' information, I can see that it was made in 1940, but there is also another number stamped on the gun, on the other side of the slide, barrel and reciever, that is 76110a. Is there any significance to that number? One man that I talked to said that he thought it would have been a nazi police gun, and that the police armory would have put that stamp on it. Also, I know that it would be nearly impossible to appraise the gun without previously seeing it. And I know that I am not in the market to sell the gun. But do any of you know just how rare a pistol like this is, and then also, how much a piece like this would be worth? I have looked at the auctions, and most hi-powers are going from 600-1,000 dollars, but with the emblems, and potential history, would this pistol be worth more, or less? Is it just an old WWII knock-around, or is this a bonafide antique collectible that will appreciate as the years go on? Thank you again for your comments.

roysclockgun

The Third Reich called your pistol the P35. Pistole Model of 1935, which was the year that the Third Reich adopted that design, which is of course, John Browning's design made in Belgium. A fair number of P35 pistols came back with GIs. Not all were given "bringback" papers. Many savvy GIs knew that rear echelon meanies grabbed firearms that were supposed to be cleared to be returned with the GI who captured them. Life is not fair. So lots of vets hid pistols and broken down long arms in their duffle bags and simply smuggled them home. As you say, it is hard to value your piece without close inspection. It should, however, be right up there with the $600-$1000 pieces that you've seen. Hi-powers were also made in Canada for the allies by the Inglis works. These went to British forces and also to the Chinese fighting the Japs. Following WWII Browning again had the Hi-power made in Belgium and later in Portugal. Many clones of the Hi-Power are produced. The P35 was among the standard issue side arm for Third Reich forces, along with the P08 Luger and P38 Walther. All three fired the 9mmLuger cartridge. The P27 was a Czech produced pistol carried by Third Reich officers and was lighter, only firing the less effective 32Auto round. I have no records showing the numbers of P35s accepted by the Third Reich, but it appears to have been lower then the numbers of P08 and P38 pistols. There is a famous photo of a German paratroop walking along a snow covered road during the battle of the Bulge, carrying a P35 in his hand. Of the pistols carried by the German forces, the P35 is the only one still produced in great numbers today, which says volumes for John Browning's design.

white_feather

Yes, the quality and craftsmanship are unbeatable. It's how old (?), and I can still shoot some pretty tight groups with it! I love the pistol, and yes, it speaks volumes as to the patent by Browning. Now, this range marshall said that he'd seen a p35 go for $20,000. He said that the pistol was indeed special, but he thought I might find that mine would bring 2,000+. Is the range marshall full of it?

He Dog

$20,000? Well if a presentation peice in it's case could be positively tied to a particular SS Colonel say, then it might go such a price. Much of the value of such peices (beyond the sentimental value of such a pistol to you) depends unpon condition (the nearer to brand new unfired, the better) and upon provenance. Provenance is the history of the peice, documents transfer forms, receipts, letters etc. That is why it is important for you to write down what you know in as much detail as possible. Such a peice as your really needs to be researched, and an accurate appraisal of its condition made by a knowledgeable collector or dealer.

nmyers

I'd say that the rangemaster's recommendation that you have it refinished shows that nothing he said can be taken seriously. You got good advice from the others on this forum.

DON'T store it in a holster, as that increases finish wear & can often lead to corrosion.

Neal

white_feather

Thank you everyone! Your advice will be heeded, and I will soon have it appraised and researched. You have all been a huge help, and if there is anything else that comes to mind that I might need to know, I would appreciate the input. You all have been kind.

white_feather

This forum yielded some very interesting information if anyone out there is interested. I asked the same questions, and recieved a little bit more detailed information.

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=147206

oldgunner

I have one also, along with the Nazi marked holster. Unfortunately, someone has replaced the original grips with Pachmayrs. Know any place I could buy originals?

white_feather

Even mine are cracked, and my Granddad made some really pretty birds-eye-maple grips for it. The GI that took it in the Korean War had the originals glued and nailed and everything. I'm sorry, but I don't know where to find originals. Wish I could be of more help.