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Penetration: .44 Mag vs .375 H&H
FEENIX
Member Posts: 10,559 ✭✭✭
WOW! This is quite a claim from Garrett ... Is this for real???
(C&P - http://www.garrettcartridges.com/faq.html#q14)
Are our 44 Magnum loads really capable of handling grizzly?
The answer is yes, in the hands of a reliable shot. From a comparative point of view, our 44 Magnum Hammerheads provide far more penetration than the 300-grain NosIer Partition fired from the 375 Holland & Holland. Also, both bullets present an extremely blunt front end (meplat). Our 44 bullets also offer far greater security from bullet fracture or deflection than any expanding bullet. Since beginning production in 1988 we have had many customers defend themselves from grizzlies, and always our 44 Magnum ammo has provided super-deep penetration, generally to the hips on a frontally shot bear (even when the skull is engaged.)
Garrett .330gr .44 MAG off 7.5" barrel, MV=1400 FPS, ME=1435 FT/LBS
vs
Nosler .300gr .375 H&H off 24" barrel, MV=2450 FPS, ME=3998 FT/LBS
(C&P - http://www.garrettcartridges.com/faq.html#q14)
Are our 44 Magnum loads really capable of handling grizzly?
The answer is yes, in the hands of a reliable shot. From a comparative point of view, our 44 Magnum Hammerheads provide far more penetration than the 300-grain NosIer Partition fired from the 375 Holland & Holland. Also, both bullets present an extremely blunt front end (meplat). Our 44 bullets also offer far greater security from bullet fracture or deflection than any expanding bullet. Since beginning production in 1988 we have had many customers defend themselves from grizzlies, and always our 44 Magnum ammo has provided super-deep penetration, generally to the hips on a frontally shot bear (even when the skull is engaged.)
Garrett .330gr .44 MAG off 7.5" barrel, MV=1400 FPS, ME=1435 FT/LBS
vs
Nosler .300gr .375 H&H off 24" barrel, MV=2450 FPS, ME=3998 FT/LBS
Comments
Note, read between the lines. "Our 44 bullets also offer far greater security from bullet fracture or deflection than any expanding bullet." Garrett specifically refers to the 300 grain Nosler Partition, not the various full metal jacketed and solid bullets made for the .375 H & H.
+1,000,000
Its a deliberate apples-to-oranges comparison.
Garrett claims that its .44 magnum rounds will put out a 310 grain hard lead bullet at 1325 fps, for roughly 1200 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.
I *do* believe Garrett's numbers. FWIW, Buffalo Bore offers a similar load with a 305 grain hardcast bullet it claims will deliver the same velocity.
So make no mistake, that's a lot of energy from a handgun. I've shot the Buffalo Bore rounds from my .44, and this was the result after the bullet went through the equivalent of four Manhattan telephone books:
I have no doubt it would punch a pretty deep hole through something softer, and yeah, if I had to use a .44 revolver against a bear, that's the round I'd like to have. Recoil, believe it or not, wasn't bad at all. You let the gun ride up on the shot and the muzzle ends up pointing to the sky. No real problem on the hands, though not very convenient if, you need a quick followup shot!
But comparing to a magnum rifle? No comparison.
A .375 H&H magnum will put out a similar 300 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2500 fps, for 4100 ft lbs of energy.
In other words, the magnum rifle is going to put out roughly double the momentum, and nearly four times the kinetic energy with a similar weight bullet.
If you choose a SOLID bullet for the rifle of course its going to offer more penetration, purely on the basis of more than double the momentum. That's why the big game hunters use solid bullets on the big dangerous game!
On top of that, the smaller cross sectional area of a .375 bullet should improve penetration over a wider .429 caliber one.
Edit: Responding to below.
The question was about a .44 magnum handgun offering more penetration than a .375 H&H magnum rifle. Answer: that's only true if you deliberately gimp the rifle with bullets designed specifically to limit penetration. In a "fair" comparison with solid bullets designed for penetration, its not even close.
Which gun is more appropriate for defending yourself against a bear is a different question. Answer there is that most people find a revolver most handy, and therefore the best choice, even if it isn't the most powerful. Some people like a shotgun with slugs, trading decreased portability for increased power, though that wasn't one of the "options".
Which gun is more useful for hunting large dangerous game is a third question.
FWIW, Taylor knockout factor is the product of momentum (mass x velocity) and bullet cross sectional area. By its nature it favors large heavy bullets, and as mentioned its a reasonable estimate of killing power against large game. Again, different question, though again, I think its pretty clear that a magnum rifle is more appropriate for hunting dangerous game than a magnum pistol!
Note, read between the lines. "Our 44 bullets also offer far greater security from bullet fracture or deflection than any expanding bullet." Garrett specifically refers to the 300 grain Nosler Partition, not the various full metal jacketed and solid bullets made for the .375 H & H.
I understand that, however, the penetration claim is what I was concerned about and beantownshootah answered it. Thanks.
ADDED1:
tsr1965, thanks for expounding. I fully understand that because the partition bullet is designed to expand, the penetration momentum will be slowed down compared to the hammerhead or solid bullet design. However, velocity and energy, works together to achieve the best penetration of the bullet design.
For instance, a .130gr partition off .270 Win (~3000 FPS of MV/~2600 FT-LBS of ME) penetrated 16.5" at 50M in this video test (
Comparatively, here's a video test of a .44Mag with .405 gr bullet at 10 yards .
My sincere apology to sound skeptic but my pistol round experience is very limited compared to the rifle cartridges.
ADDED2:
tsr1965, thanks again for your patience in shedding some light in this issue. Excellent comparison on the drag chute. Having worked in aircraft maintenance for many years, esp. the F-4s and fully aware of the drag chute system. Most people have seen the aircraft deploy the chute during landings to slow them down and reduce the load on its brake system (augment) and runway stopping distance. On carriers, they use the tail hook. The truth is, the primary design was for impending spin, it allows the aircrew more time and attempts to recover and gain control.
Anyways, the difference between the partition and drag chute comparison is that, the bullet at best can only expand twice it's diameter to slow the momentum of the 2450 FPS/3998 FL-LBS complimentary force/energy. Unlike the chutes in the drag racing car and the F-4, we are talking about a massive surface area, ~ 50 feet in diameter along with the fact that both vehicle are also trying to slow down the momentum. The bullet does not have that factor.
Like this guy (
Thanks again for all your help ... I value your (and others in ATE) for all your expertise and for sharing them.
V/R
Ed
ADDED3:
tsr1965, cheers! [:p][}:)][^]
ADDED4:
beantownshootah, I totally agree on your statement "Penetration is more related to bullet momentum than kinetic energy" and for the same reason I am skeptical.
Momentum (Force) = mass x velocity
.44 Mag = .330 x 1400 = 462
.375 H&H = .300 x 2450 = 735
300gr 'solids'.
And, if you can stand the thump, the .375 H&H is up there in accuracy.
The .44 magnum will always be strapped on, so it's a greater chance to encounter something nasty with the .44
Joe
Things to forget...
Lets start with the rifle in 375 H&H.
It is just that, a rifle. If one is just hiking or camping in grizzly country, and not hunting, I say the chances of a hundgun being present are much greater than a rifle. Sure, a 500 Whiz Bang would be a real fight stopper too, but only if you happen to have it with you...not home in the safe. So is it to far off to say, that the 44 Magnum would be more in touch than the 375? If that 375 is more than 10 feet away, you don't stand a chance. So lets forget about a rifle.
Next thing to forget...forget about using the muzzle energy as a reliable bench mark for stopping power. A 223 puts out as much or more muzzle energy than a heavy loaded 44 magnum...which one are you going to take? The small needle like piece of lead and copper, or the 300 plus grain 44 magnum hard cast? I can tell you which one has more drive.
The example given by FEENIX shows the ME. The TAYLOR factor for the 375 is 39.375, and the TAYLOR factor for the 44 is 28.35 . While the 375 still wins, the factor of the velocity squared does not disproportion the effectiveness of each by using the TAYLOR factor. After all, this was devised by a well known ELEPHANT hunter.
Things to remember
Almost in reverse order, remember which weapon will be with you. If you are hunting, and happen to have a 375 with you, well then kudoo's to you. If you are just out for a walk, and you don't feel like carrying a rifle(almost like talking about a defensive handgun...which one is best?...the one you have with you, not the one in the nightstand at home), well then a good big caliber wheel gun might be fit for the task.
Remember, that when facing large and dangerous game, that can eat you, or stomp you back into the dust of the earth where you came from...to trust the TAYLOR factor over muzzle energy. If I had my rathers, I would be carrying a pistol gripped 12 gauge with hard cast slugs.
Now as to the claims of Garrett...It all depends on what range, and what is the medium being penetrated. The pistol bullet is not going to deform much, if any at all. The Partition is going to expand, and shed some weight...that is going to put the brakes on momentum. I don't doubt the claim at all.
You folks might want to do a search for related topics.
Best
EDIT 1
The OP didn't ask what would out perform the other, the 375 H&H rifle or 44 Magnum Revolver. The OP DID ask if Garrett's claim using SPECIFIC loads was "for real?" Yes it is. That Nosler partition in the 375 h&h IS going to loose shape, weight, and momentum, rapidly, more so than the said 330 grain 44 magnum Hammerhead load, on ANY test medium.
Best
EDIT 2
FEENIX,
Think of it like a Top Fuel Rail drag race car. Compare the bullet mushroom to the parachute. The more expansion, the more it slows down. Like I said before, leave the ENERGY out of it, as that formula is biased toward velocity, as it uses the velocity squared, or the velocity x velocity. For penetration, I will take a good ole' hard cast 405 grain 45-70 leaving at 1600 FPS, over a 22-250 55 grain FMJ any day...or even over a 300 RUM going 3200 with a 180 partition. It might take it a little longer to hit the 100 or 200 yard mark, but when it gets there, its going to be like trying to stop a locomotive.
Best
EDIT 3
FEENIX,
I applaud you for your service to this wonderful country. Thank You!
quote:the bullet at best can only expand twice it's diameter
Don't fool yourself. All bullets are not created equal. There are some that will readily expand to over 2.5 times their original diameter. I have personally seen many silver dollar sized 12 gauge foster type rifled slugs that were recovered from whitetailed deer.
That video was OK, but the hardwood was not a realistic test of penetration. Neither was his method of measuring it. I know I have shot a 9mm into the end of a hard maple, and a northern cherry, and got as much or more penetration than that. The second test was realistic, but for a test the 44 Vs. the 375 H&H, it should be 1 1/2 inches of kiln dried pine, and 36 inches of ballistic geletain behind it. That would determine what penetrated how much.
Best
Question has already been answered, so I'll feel free to chime in on this extraneous stuff.
Just as a point of information well-designed bullets CAN expand to more than twice their original diameter. Its just a function of their construction and materials content.
Penetration is more related to bullet momentum than kinetic energy.
Next its more than just increased diameter that slows down expanding bullets.
What the hell is the question here?
Sage 1
Ami not correct the 44 is comparable to a 30 30 in power.
What the hell is the question here?
Sage 1
Here is the question, if you missed it.
quote:This is quite a claim from Garrett ... Is this for real???
After reading all the posts, and observing the links, base your conclusion. It has absolutely nothing to do with power or energy, but more of the theory of the TAYLOR factor, which is based off momentum. Momentum is the ability of an object that is in motion, to stay in motion. If everything is based around power, then why do the big bear guides, and dangerous game guides in Africa, tend to like back up weapons that shoot BIG, HEAVY, SLOW moving projectiles, that do not deform?
The claim was a specific 44 Magnum load, against the 375 H&H with a 300 grain Nosler Partition.
By the way, the 44 Magnum, develops substantially less power/energy than the 30-30.
Best
Hope this helps understanding why one is better than the other.....sometimes.
Here is a Ballistics comparison of .30-30 Winchester and .44 Remington Mag. Ballistics that I am going to give you are as if the .30-30 was fired from a 24" barrel and the .44 fired from a 20" barrel. Now as you know there aren't many .30-30 rifles with a 24" barrel so I can guarantee you that those numbers would show significantly less performance if they were referencing .30-30 carbines. You have to read the fine print on ballistics charts and web pages citing them to see this.
Here we go:
.30-30 Winchester firing Remington Core-Lokt 170gr SP
Velocity (ft/sec)
Muzzle - 2200
100 yd - 1895
200 yd - 1619
300 yd - 1381
Energy (ft. lbs.)
Muzzle - 1827
100 yd - 1355
200 yd - 989
300 yd - 720
Trajectory
50 yd - +.3"
100 yd - Zero
150 yd - -2.7"
200 yd - -8.3"
.44 Remington Mag firing Remington Express 240gr SP
Velocity (ft/sec)
Muzzle - 1760
100 yd - 1380
200 yd - 1114
300 yd - 970
Energy (ft. lbs.)
Muzzle - 1650
100 yd - 1015
200 yd - 661
300 yd - 501
Trajectory
50 yd - zero
100 yd - -2.1"
150 yd - -8.7"
200 yd - -21.2"
Look at these TAR 1965. Just a reference.
Sage 1