pistol heiritage

sgm hag

I inheirited a pistol form my great aunt that was my great uncle's military issued sidearm. It is a S&W, .38cal, 6-shot revolver with wood grips and a rectanglular steel lanyard loop on the bottom of the grip strap next to the serial nbr. Other interesting stampings include: 1)Along rear sight ramp "U.S. Property G.H.D.", 2)Top of barrel following front sight, S&W address, Patent dates Feb t 03, Sept.14.08, Dec.20.14, 3)Left side of barrel following large Smith & Wesson type, .38.787 (just below those nbrs)3 1/4TONS, 4)Finally, at the cylinder hinge point there are 5 nbrs stamped on the frame & cylinder hinge. They are very small and I am 67 (w/ glasses) but no magnifing glass to read them. They appear to be the same but don't look to match the numbers on the grip. Measuring from where the barrel meets the cylinder (breech), the barrel measures 5".

I've owned the piece for years and always thought it was from WWII until one day my son and I were looking thru some old family photos and came accross a photo of Uncle Cy in uniform. Suddenly it occurred to me that he was actually my grandmother's brother which made him my Great Uncle. That meant the gun was WWI issue, plus the fact that the .45 semi auto was the standard sidearm for WWII.


So, what could you pros tell me about this pistol? Does the Army consider it stolen? Can we tell when it was made from the info I've provided? Who was issued the pistol? Was it by rank or position? I can't tell from the photo what his rank might have been. Was it common for returning G.I.s from the Great War to keep their rifle, bayonet, ammo and sidearms when they mustered out? I never thought of him as stealing anything. Although, along with this pistol, he also had his old Springfield bolt action rifle & bayonet plus a bag of "trophies" like German medals, badges, ribbons and three pistols that he explained to me as "they just didn't need them anymore".

Any info would be appreciated since I don't have a clue where to look. Plus, does it have any monetary value? It won't be sold but it would be nice to know it has value more than just being another .38. Thanks for your help

rufe-snow

From your description your revolver is what is known as the Smith & Wesson, Victory Model. They were made for the British military during the Second World War, under the Lend Lease statutes. It was originally chambered for the British military revolver cartridge, which is similar to our 38 Smith & Wesson cartridge, not the much more common .38 Special.

These markings are British commercial proof marks, "787 (just below those nbrs)3 1/4TONS". They were required when the revolver was exported and sold as surplus to the U.S. after the end of the war.

62fuelie

If I were you, I would look very carefully at the '03 Springfield and the three war trophies. These could be more valuable than the S&W Victory model. In WW I the 1911 was the nominal standard, but there just weren't enough of them so the military contracted for both S&W and Colt to make versions of their large frame revolvers modified to fire the .45 ACP round held in sheet metal clips called "half-moon clips" these revolvers were known as the 1917 models. The numbers inside the crane arbour on your Lend-Lease S&W may be assembly numbers applied by the factory during assembly. The '03 was used in both WW I and II so you may need to get more details on your relatives service. Have a gunsmith check the S&W for bore size as the British .380/200 round was closer to our .38 S&W and was a larger diameter bullet at lower pressures than the .38 Special. The "bring-back" trophies may be some valuable pieces, have them checked by a smith as well. If there are "bring-back" papers with the captured guns it will increase their collector interest and give a date to the service of your relative.

nmyers

Service members, at least since the Spanish American War were not permitted to take home issued equipment other than clothing, footwear, & expendibles. I'm not saying that it wasn't done, but technically it was considered theft when they took equipment that belonged to the government.

There are no records kept of who any firearms were issued to. And, the government has sold/given away so many firearms issued prior to Viet Nam that they no longer are able to prove ownership, nor does anyone care. The DOJ would, however, bust your ovaries if found in possession of an unregistered full auto, or destructive device.

Just about any firearm has value. Guessing value without seeing photos is quite difficult.

Neal

sgm hag

Thanks for the input guys. Much appreciated. Still a little confused as to why it was stamped U.S.Property G.H.D.

I'll get photos of the three semi-autos on here too. I'd be real interested in knowing more about their pedigree.

Thanks again, very enlightening.

rufe-snow

quote:Originally posted by sgm hag
Thanks for the input guys. Much appreciated. Still a little confused as to why it was stamped U.S.Property G.H.D.

I'll get photos of the three semi-autos on here too. I'd be real interested in knowing more about their pedigree.

Thanks again, very enlightening.


Guy H. Drewry was a U.S. Army Lt. Col.. He was chief inspector at S & W during most of the W W II time frame. Got the below photo off the net. Among his responsibilites were inspecting the Land Lease guns being shipped to England.

45er

sgm,

The Victory Model S&W is an interesting study. And can be confusing to trace-- I've one that after WW-2 was issued around the globe to various Brit. Commonweaths and has multiple markings, some over-stamped upon original stamping and are hardly ledgible.

Have read where some early Lend Lease Victory's were shipped overseas from S&W without the "V" stamped into place ahead the serial number. Some are not parkerized either, as most are. Heard of chamberings for .38-Special, yet cannot comfirm due to conflicting sources?
Etc, etc... .

Lots to learn-- enjoy.

45er

Hawk Carse

There were thousands of Lend Lease and British contract M&Ps made without the V. When plain serial numbers in the regular M&P series reached 999999 they added the V prefix and started over.

There were military contracts for .38 Specials and they look just like the British issue except for caliber. More were 4" instead of 5" though. They were a secondary standard US issue, some still in use decades later. I think a few went to England where they got a red stripe around the cylinder to show they did not take British standard ammunition, kind of like the 1917s we sent.

This was NOT Unk's US WW I issue sidearm. It was not made until maybe 1940 and was GB issue, not US.