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Ammo for a Springfield trapdoor.

jimdeerejimdeere Member, Moderator Posts: 25,668 ******
edited May 2019 in General Discussion
I would really like to shoot mine but don?t want to blow it up. Does anyone make 45-70 ammo especially for antique trapdoors?
My old Speer manual has two sets of loads, one for older lever guns and one for modern rifles. It states emphatically no to fire these loads in a trapdoor Springfield.
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    Ricci WrightRicci Wright Member Posts: 8,260 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think all the major ammo companies make low powered loads for your gun.
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    castingcasting Member Posts: 110 ✭
    edited November -1
    Don't take this as the last word but I think all commercial loads are purposely loaded down for trapdoors. It's a liability thing. My Sierra book has 3 sets of data.
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    jimdeerejimdeere Member, Moderator Posts: 25,668 ******
    edited November -1
    I have a box of Ultramax ammo, but their website doesn?t have any info other than it?s a 405 gr. bullet with a 1050fps muzzle velocity.
    https://www.ultramaxammunition.com/cowboy.php
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    jimdeerejimdeere Member, Moderator Posts: 25,668 ******
    edited November -1
    That?s my plan. Get some dies and roll my own. May use Pyrodex or Triple Seven.
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    ruger41ruger41 Member Posts: 14,647 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Currently loaded Black powder ammo for .45-70

    https://www.buffaloarms.com/45-70-government-350-grn-rnfp-black-powder-ammo-box-of-20-amobp4570350
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    babunbabun Member Posts: 11,054 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Trapdoor loads should stay UNDER 18,000psi.
    Commercial loads, unless listed for the trapdoors, can be up to 28,000psi.
    Buy only loads for YOUR gun or roll your own.
    Any blackpowder or similar powder would be safe, It's almost impossible to over fill a blackpowder case. Just the opposite is unsafe...empty air space in a blackpowder case can cause troubles.
    Be careful, be safe, have fun.
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    Sam06Sam06 Member Posts: 21,254 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    jimdeere wrote:
    That?s my plan. Get some dies and roll my own. May use Pyrodex or Triple Seven.

    When you start loading for the Trap Door look at these 2 Powders:

    Accurate 5744 https://www.ammoland.com/2017/07/accurate-5744-powder-review-accurate-arms/#axzz5mfz2qsaB

    IMR Trail Boss https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/trail-boss-reduced-loads-r_p.pdf

    I have been reloading since 1975 and I consider myself fairly experienced. I load for around 40 different calibers and the 45-70 has 3 distinct levels of power; Trap Door, Marlin 1895/Winchester 1886 and Ruger #1.

    The 2 powders listed above will keep the pressure where it needs to be and will produce clean, safe and accurate ammo as long as you follow the manual.


    One piece of advise never and I mean never ask or use a load posted on the internet unless it is also listed in a reloading manual. When looking for a good reloading manual if I only had to have one it would Sierra bullet manual.

    BTW I will look around and I may have some stuff to get you started, If you are interested let me know.
    RLTW

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    jimdeerejimdeere Member, Moderator Posts: 25,668 ******
    edited November -1
    Thanks, Sam. I don?t have any Trail Boss, but it?s readily available around here.
    Dr Frankenstein experimented and see where that got him. :D
    I always consult at least two manuals, and if applicable, the powder manufacturers recommendations.
    I?ll have dies, powder, and bullets by this weekend.
    By then, I?ll have been severely bitten by the 45-70 bug.
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    jimdeerejimdeere Member, Moderator Posts: 25,668 ******
    edited November -1
    Frankenstein idea-
    Pull the bullets from the 20 rounds of full power 45-70 rounds.
    Dump the powder in the grass
    Flare the case mouth with the 45 ACP die
    Charge the cases with the appropriate amount of 777 black powder substitute.
    Re seat the bullets with the 45 ACP seating die
    Taper crimp with the same.
    Will the original primers ignite the powder?
    Since it?s a single shot, will there be enough neck tension on the bullet?
    (I?m certainly not going to do this, just a hypothetical.)
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    Sam06Sam06 Member Posts: 21,254 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That would probably work but you will have to really mess around with 45 acp dies. 45acp .451-452, 45-70 .454-458 so you may get some shaving and the crimp may be a little tight.

    I have not tried this before. I think a 45 Colt Die may work better because the 45 acp dies are so short.

    Your grass will love the powder though ;) and the primers should have no problem igniting 777. I don't think I would compress 777 in the case. I think 777 is 10-15% more powerful than BP so I would reduce the load a little, maybe fill the case to the bottom of the bullet and see how many grains that is.

    I have never loaded 45-70 with BP or a substitute but I doubt you can get more than 62 or so grains in new brass with a 405-500 gr bullets seated to spec. The Brass made today is much thicker and will not hold as much BP as old timey brass with a balloon head.

    One more...........I forgot that BP substitute is measured by Volume, something you will have to take into account.
    RLTW

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    truthfultruthful Member Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Before you fire ANY load in your trapdoor, make 100% sure it is safe to shoot it. It is 100+ years old, has probably been rebuilt several times, often by Bubba, or even assembled from scrapped mismatched parts. Then shoot only full casereal black powder loads regardless of what the experts have gotten away with using.
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    Missouri Mule K30Missouri Mule K30 Member Posts: 2,092 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Black powder and Lead. I was told long ago not to use jacketed slugs and push the 405gr out. Very early serial, arched block. Even though the Trap looks week it was designed to do the job well long ago. I like how in the movies how they throw the block open for ejection. But under stress of combat, adrenalin kicks in. I just have to wonder how many blocks have broken.

    After inspected by a smith with knowledge of Trapdoor's trouble areas, as long as I do not abuse the purpose of the design the rifle will outlast me also. When I put on that pig sticker, I like the looks that I get at the range. Priceless, any longer and I could call it a Pike. I just tell everyone that it shoots better with it on, heck its the only time it gets used. :shock:

    Be conservative and shoot lead.
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    chiefrchiefr Member Posts: 13,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Trapdoors were designed to shoot black powder and soft lead. Anything but....is risky.
    I shoot mine often and am not going to risk damaging mine with smokeless powder.
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    jimdeerejimdeere Member, Moderator Posts: 25,668 ******
    edited November -1
    Chiefr, do you use real black powder or one of the substitutes?
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    yoshmysteryoshmyster Member Posts: 21,087 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    I got some rolled from a joint in Georgia. I need to look at the box for the manufacturer. Pretty sure they're okay for Trapdoor since they mention so.

    Okay found the label and stats.

    Georgia Arms G4570C
    770-459-5177
    "Safe For Trapdoor"
    405gr Round Nose Flat Point
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    chiefrchiefr Member Posts: 13,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    jimdeere wrote:
    Chiefr, do you use real black powder or one of the substitutes?


    Yes. I always use BP. No substitutes. FG with a beeswax cookie, SPG lube on bullets, plus a lubed felt wad under the bullet and I compress my charges.
    SPG, a good cookie, and the wad, keep the residue soft for many subsequent shots if you do not have the time to clean. Been into BP cart shooting for some time now.

    I have over the years seen two trapdoors ruined with smokeless. One was an original officers model.
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    babunbabun Member Posts: 11,054 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    SoreShoulder wrote:
    jimdeere wrote:
    Frankenstein idea-
    Pull the bullets from the 20 rounds of full power 45-70 rounds.
    Dump the powder in the grass
    Flare the case mouth with the 45 ACP die
    Charge the cases with the appropriate amount of 777 black powder substitute.
    I would look for actual published 777 data, the same as any other powder. It's stronger than blackpowder.

    I would trust powder manufacturers' own data posted on their own site. That is different from some load posted by someone you don't know on some forum.


    +10000000

    I won't use 777 in any amount in that gun.

    Read ALL of this...
    http://ns.hodgdon.com/tripleseven.html
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    gruntled2gruntled2 Member Posts: 560 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Missouri Mule K30 wrote:
    Black powder and Lead. I was told long ago not to use jacketed slugs and push the 405gr out. Very early serial, arched block. Even though the Trap looks week it was designed to do the job well long ago. I like how in the movies how they throw the block open for ejection. But under stress of combat, adrenalin kicks in. I just have to wonder how many blocks have broken.

    After inspected by a smith with knowledge of Trapdoor's trouble areas, as long as I do not abuse the purpose of the design the rifle will outlast me also. When I put on that pig sticker, I like the looks that I get at the range. Priceless, any longer and I could call it a Pike. I just tell everyone that it shoots better with it on, heck its the only time it gets used. :shock:

    Be conservative and shoot lead.
    I know of one. All I did was open it easily & it fell off. That was several decades ago & I got a replacement from Dixie Gun Works for just a few Dollars.
    I keep my Marlin & Ruger #3 loads separate by using jacketed bullets for them. The Ruger can of course take heavier loads than the Marlin but I can't. That gun HURTS!
    As far as using a full charge of black powder I seem to recall that the carbine load was much less than the rifle load. Without bothering to look it up I seem to recall they used 50 grains. If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will quickly correct me.
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