Looking for a European Shotgun Expert.PICS! Knowledge needed!

gearheaddad

I have a beautiful old 16 Gauge Double that was supposedly made in Czechoslovakia/Bohemia probably in the very early 1900's. It was my Grandfathers, and a cherished heirloom.
It is beautifully engraved with nicely figured wood, cheek rest, and very fine but worn checkering.
Greener style cross bolt.
Rib between barrels is marked
J.WICH v LIBERCI (in gold)
lever is marked
J-WICH
Bottom of receiver is marked
J.WICH v LIBERCI
Sides of barrels are marked
SPECIAL-GEWEHR-LAUF
3 "circles", like the Olympic rings...
FRIED KRUPP A.G.
ESEEN

Any thoughts?
Any and all help is deeply appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Ed

Hawk Carse

As I am sure you know, Liberci (Liberec) is a city in what is now the Czech Republic.
Unfortunately I can find no reference to J. WICH in Czechoslovakia or other European country. Perhaps he was a small builder or even just a dealer selling trade guns.

Other markings refer to Krupp steel used by a lot of gunmakers.

TRAP55

Ed, break it down and look for markings on the bottom of the barrels under the chambers, and on the water table, the area on the frame under the chambers. The proofs and/or maker mark might be there. And post some pics!
Edit: Nice! Better than the old world, hand engraved, gun porn I was expecting! 8-) Granpa had excellent taste in shotguns.
I can't make out what's on the barrels, but that's where all the info is for proof testing, who did it, and chamber/gauge/ choke info. I "had" all that deciphering on a pdf file, but my power supply failure in the old PC did a good job of mayhem on my hard drive. Pretty sure rufesnow has all that in his resources. Get a good clear pic of those markings, maybe we can get a clear picture of who/what/when/where.
Edit2: Went through everything I have and find no reference to that maker. If anyone anywhere has info on it, this would be the best place to ask.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

rufesnow

Use to be a couple of shotgun specific, collectors sites on the net. Because of the very restrictive gun laws on the other side of the pond. Old Shotguns, are very popular with collectors in Europe.

Your excellent photos very likely, would bring a number of responses from these overseas collectors.

Don't remember the names of the 2 sites unfortunately? GOOGLEing some term, like "Shotgun Collectors" or similar. Hopefully would help you find them.

nononsense

Good Morning!

Great looking older shotgun:

Krupp Steel (Stahl)

Essen - city where Krupp is located in the Ruhr Valley industrial region of Germany

Many of the marks or symbols are proof marks or inspection marks. These can be found easily on the internet by using a simple search for 'Proof Marks". Here is an example of one of the marks seen in two location in your pictures:



Here is the link to the original article:

https://www.bevfitchett.us/ballistics/proof-marks.html

Match your marks to the images in the article or other sources and you will develop a fair picture of the shotgun in your possession.

Best.

gearheaddad

Thanks for the information Fellas.
I'll certainly keep digging.
My Father gave me this old gal for my 40th birthday, and I have cherished it since.
My Grandfather bought it second hand from a Chicago gun shop in 1934 for $250.00! Keep in mind he paid $76.50 for a Savage 99 30-30 Takedown from Sears in 1928! Somewhere in all my old family files I have some letters between my Grandfather and the original owner that claimed he had 2 identical guns made for his twin boys and one boy sold/pawned his. He wanted to buy it back from my Grandpa, but my Grandpa wanted to buy the other one! Any way, here we are.......I'm in contact with a master gunsmith that does magnificent antique gun restoration and am considering having it restored. But then again..........
I'll keep asking and looking for more information on this fine old heirloom, and again thanks for the input,
Ed

Hawk Carse

Belgian proof marks.
Supports my theory that J WICH was a Czech dealer bringing in guns from a commodity maker. Nice looking.

rufesnow

Just noticed the photos you added on 5/30. The proof marks, on the barrels and water table. Are very interesting, in that the ones I can identify. Are from Belgium, not Czechoslovakia or Austria as expected.

At this late date, it's hard to explain this? Other than it might have been resold in Belgium. As a used gun, prior to it being brought back to the States. In the 1920'/30s? There was a lot of flux, in the European countries that made sporting firearms. During the first 30 years of the 20th Century. The First World War caused the demise of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Which Czechoslovakia was a part of. Perhaps this is the reason, that their are Belgian proofs on your shotgun? Rather than the expected Austrian or Czech.

nononsense

Are very interesting, in that the ones I can identify. Are from Belgium, not Czechoslovakia or Austria as expected.

At this late date, it's hard to explain this?

There are two suggestion available:

He was a Czech working as a gunsmith in Belgium or, as is more likely...

He ordered the barreled receiver as a generic fitted set and did the stock making, engraving and finishing in his shop.

No gunsmiths actually made and regulate double shotguns or rifles then or now, individually. This was handled by companies such as Krupp who made the barrels then shipped to Belgium where the barrels were fitted to the receiver then shipped to the gunsmith.

You might disagree when discussing fine English shotguns and double rifles because those companies do everything in house. But the diversity of processes requires a huge outlay in machines and expertise. It was less expensive to order the fitted set from Belgium then do the stock work and finishing.

Best.

gearheaddad

That seems to make the most sense, nononsense.
Again, thanks to everyone for your thoughts and knowledge.
Ed