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US Rifle M14

dfletcherdfletcher Member Posts: 8,162 ✭✭✭
edited September 2019 in Ask the Experts
This isn't a question about the commercially made Springfield M1A but rather the US military issued M14 rifle. My frame of reference, like most I'd expect, is "once a machine gun always a machine gun".

I spent last weekend out of CA shooting full auto - 1918 BAR and Springfield Armory M14 among others. Full auto on the M14 was as useless now as it was +40 years ago when I was overseas. Acquired one rather than use the GAU I was issued. There was discussion as to whether a chopped M14 receiver rewelded can be considered anything other than NFA Class III. I generally kept my mouth shut. I've since done some reading.

About 30 years back a fellow named Hahn rewelded M14 receivers that had been cut. Another company, or perhaps in association with him, named MKS sold "semi-auto" M14s also. And of course a few bad things happened. However a fellow taken to court by ATF (or he took ATF to court) prevailed. Good for him I suppose, and probably only him would be the position of ATF. A very expensive "test case" rifle no doubt.

I've also read the Fulton Armory website and they make reference to "nearly all" M14s being considered NFA Class III. "Nearly all" isn't all, but the site offers no further explanation.

Separate from whether a reweld is inherently bad news or can be satisfactorily done, is there any such thing as a legal, semi-auto "U.S Rifle M14" that is not NFA Class III?
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    mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,456 ******
    edited November -1
    "Nearly all" is correct. In 1962 The Director of Civilian Marksmanship ordered Springfield Armory to manufacture 1000 M14 rifles which were modified to fire semiautomatic only by welding the selector shaft in the semi automatic position. These rifles were marked as M14M (Modified Service) and were intended to be issued to NRA affiliated rifle clubs and for sale to qualified individuals. A few hundred were sold/issued before the ATTU (as the BATF was then known) determined that the rifles were in fact machineguns. This classification occurred at around the same time as the ruling that the Browning Arms imported G1 FAL rifles were machineguns. Existing M14M rifles were grandfathered and remain legal unless modified to select-fire.

    More than half a century later, the M14M remains the only completely legal semiautomatic M14 Service Rifle.
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    rufesnowrufesnow Member Posts: 241 ✭
    edited November -1
    No offense! But I think your wasting your time. Asking the various Philadelphia lawyers on the net. There opinions on this. Unless they can specificy, the specific case law . One way or the other that affects, these reworked M 14's.

    The only opinion that would be truly valid, IMHO. Would be in writing from the BATF
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    mrmike08075mrmike08075 Member Posts: 10,998 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2019
    There is a selector switch not included - a small black piece with a spring attached???

    What about the BM59s from Italy???

    ZK420S???

    And there was the tale that some early norinco import clones being FA capable...

    Mike
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    Quick&DeadQuick&Dead Member Posts: 1,466 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    M-14 ... issued a brand new one in the service. Took it out of the original cardboard box.

    IMO it was a piece of junk, not accurate and rather heavy. It didn't even make a decent prybar.

    :lol::lol:

    A few years after I got out of the service, Ruger came out with the mini 14. Local gunshop owner tried to sell me one. IMO it wasn't any different than the military version and told him nope, not interested.
    The government has no rights. Only the people have rights which empowers the government.
    We have enough gun laws, what we need is IDIOT control.
    Blood makes you related. Loyalty makes you family.

    I thought getting old would take longer. :shock:
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    dfletcherdfletcher Member Posts: 8,162 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    mark christian wrote:
    "Nearly all" is correct. In 1962 The Director of Civilian Marksmanship ordered Springfield Armory to manufacture 1000 M14 rifles which were modified to fire semiautomatic only by welding the selector shaft in the semi automatic position. These rifles were marked as M14M (Modified Service) and were intended to be issued to NRA affiliated rifle clubs and for sale to qualified individuals. A few hundred were sold/issued before the ATTU (as the BATF was then known) determined that the rifles were in fact machineguns. This classification occurred at around the same time as the ruling that the Browning Arms imported G1 FAL rifles were machineguns. Existing M14M rifles were grandfathered and remain legal unless modified to select-fire.

    More than half a century later, the M14M remains the only completely legal semiautomatic M14 Service Rifle.

    Thank you Mark. I don't recall the discussion of M14M rifles, it related more to receivers that were properly "destroyed" and rewelded according to ATF regulations and approval, at the time.

    I have two more years in CA. And hope that whatever state I go to still has the option of buying Class III.
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    11b6r11b6r Member Posts: 16,588 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Disclaimer- I am not a lawyer. Mom and Dad were married, so I am disqualified.

    Having said that, Mr. Christian is (as usual) correct on the M14M rifle. By legend, there are about 20 of them in private hands.

    Regarding the re-welds..... Theory being that the "machine gun" was destroyed when the receivers were demilled. At that point, it is just a hunk of metal. If you use that hunk of metal as raw material to build another rifle THAT IS NOT CAPABLE of full auto fire- or being "readily convertible" to full auto- it ain't a machine gun.

    Is that a battle you can win? Maybe. Is it going to be expensive and take a lot of time? Heh. I'll put $50 on that and give you odds. I will also offer a side bet that the ATF has more lawyers than you do.

    Incidentally, demilling a machine gun NOW is either completely melting the part designated as a machine gun, or TORCH CUTTING it into 3 bits, Torch cutting leaves a ragged gap of about 1/3 of an inch between piece A and piece B. A bandsaw leaves a small, smooth space.
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    mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,456 ******
    edited November -1
    I misunderstood the OP. I thought that he wanted to purchase a semi automatic M14 Service Rifle. It now appears that what he wants to do is to build a semi auto from scrapped M14 receivers. 11b6r already covered the issue with scrapped receivers, which must now be DEMILed to the point of being true scrap metal. Many years ago there were various parts and pieces of M14s floating around, especially receiver heels which still had markings and serial numbers. Enterprising individuals bought up piles of scrapped receivers, matched them front and rear as closely as possible, and then sold them as a set. Of course you might end up with a Springfield heel matched H&R front half, but it was the chance you took. Understand the prior to May 1986 it was perfectly legal to grind off the US markings, stamp a new serial number onto the receiver and then register it on a Form 1. Once the Form 1 was approved you could weld the receiver back together and legally create a new machinegun. For private individuals, that is over and done with.

    Currently, if you happen to run across these scrapped M14 sets they can only be restored to fire semi automatic and that is the trick. We have guys in the forum who carried an M14 with them 20 hours a day and then slept with it for the remaining four hours so I won't pretend to be an expert on the M14's operating system. What I can tell you is that there are specific differences between an M14 receiver and an ATF approved semi automatic. The two key differences are the presence of the tab below the M14 receiver which allows contact with the auto sear and acts as host for the selector shaft and related parts. The second issue is the disassembly cut out on the receiver track which allows the operating rod to be dismounted. The sear tab is an obvious no-no. It has to go. The disassembly notch by itself does not allow full automatic fire, but the connector which does allow full auto cannot be made functional without that notch. As a result, the operating rod disassembly cut out on semi autos was moved to the rear of the receiver where in mimics the M1 Garand and the semi auto receiver track lacks the M14 cut out. Obviously a well equipped shop could do the job and create a functional semi automatic receiver, but these modifications amount to a lot of work expended on what is essentially scrap metal. Make just one mistake with the modifications (real or imagined) and the ATF will have you and your "illegally manufactured machinegun" in court.

    Is this closer to the information you were looking for?
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    dfletcherdfletcher Member Posts: 8,162 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ^
    Yes, that is closer to the information I was looking for. With the caveat that no, I'm not looking to build one from scrap - I don't have the skills and wouldn't know where to start, raw materials or talent, to have it done by someone else. Am not looking to buy one as I have the commercial Springfield Armory versions that suit me. The shooters I was with over the weekend were covering new ground for me, it peaked my interest.

    FWIW, info on the M14 forum states that in 1994 an outfit named Hahn Machine received a tech letter from ATF stating they could reweld M14 receivers, in the fashion you discussed, and sell them as semi-auto rifles. That's no longer the case, at least from what I've read. Don't know if the link will work, but here is one of those Hahn rewelds for sale a few years back:

    Do not link a rival auction site into the Gun Broker forums.
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