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9mm AR-pistol or 9mm AR-PCC?
7.62x39Lover
Member Posts: 3,939 ✭✭✭
Hi Guys!
For a 9mm pistol cartridge, what length barrel is perfect in terms of taking advantage of all the powder? Is a 16 inch barrel on a PCC actually too long for a 9mm cartridge? What barrel length is optimal to get all of the power / velocity out of a 9mm pistol cartridge?
For a 9mm pistol cartridge, what length barrel is perfect in terms of taking advantage of all the powder? Is a 16 inch barrel on a PCC actually too long for a 9mm cartridge? What barrel length is optimal to get all of the power / velocity out of a 9mm pistol cartridge?
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Comments
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html
Looks like a 17" barrel is going to get you the best velocity with most of the loads listed.
The reason for all the fiddling: I wanted to see if/how it was going to feel and fit my specific criteria for use using mostly parts on hand before spending the additional $$. My intent is to build a SD firearm for my work vehicle that has more range than a CCW handgun, is easily suppressed with a more compact suppressor vs 5.56, and is shorter OAL w/suppressor than a typical 16" barrel carbine is w/o.
Now, to the question of barrel length. I have both a Ruger PC9 and Marlin Camp 9 with 16" barrels and have shot both out to 100 yards. What I found with those is that the longer barrel extracts all the available power from 147 grain ammo. Based on my casual research on the diff between 16" and 10.5"(my choice for pistol barrel length), very little velocity is lost/gained between the two lengths when using 147 grain factory ammo.
The reason I'm only looking at 147 grain ammo---only a handful of factory ammo choices will stay sub-sonic from the 10.5" barrel and the 147 carries it's velocity better at longer ranges. A 147 from a 10.5" barrel will have almost as much velocity @ 100 yards as the same from a 3.5" has @ 10 yards.
9mm carbines are easily suppressed and are generally subsonic with the 147gr bullets. I know that a suppressor is on your wish list, so keep in mind that once you screw on the "can", the OAL of an 8" barrel carbine is now more or less identical to what it would be with a 16" barrel.
I apologize for the poor quality photos which I took with my phone.
If I recall some of Hiram Maxim's early cans were rifles and the bore diameter matched to that of the firearm platforms bbl...
Obviously using a .30 cal can on a .22 diameter bbl makes this a non issue.
I also remember early cans being set up for the addition of front sigjts - offering a greater sight radius extension and improved accuracy - but that feature seems to be lacking or have disappeared over the last 30 years...
On pistol carbine family designs with silencers has there been an issue with poorly trained individuals grasping the can while shooting to stabilize the gun - I assume the fine threads commonly encountered in the industry are incapable of supporting such a load without breaking...
Also I cannot recall seeing and flash suppressor or recoil reduce or blast deflection baffles incorporated in cans since some developmental patent experiments prior to 1935
Is there any issue with certain bullet weights or purposely designed subsonic ammo failing to allow the action to cycle correctly on pistols or smg's with heavier bolts or weighty internals???
Has anyone handled or tested out the shotgun suppressors on 12 gauge or 20 gauge guns???
I know internal baffle design and architecture has advanced - but what about inserted sound absorbing materials development???
Are cans always comparable with say polygonal rifling or progressive gain twist rifling or can interfere patterns develop and occur that negativity affect performance or function???
With electronic ignition of careless ammo like the Daisy VVL or H&K G11 or even the Remington etronix cartridges / munitions is sound further reduced as there is no primer pop - only action noise and mechanical sounds???
I found the nagant gas seal target revolver with a maxim designed silencer to be the quietest I ever experienced and in a revolver the number of moving interlocking parts was much less of a concern - it being the only revolver I am aware of that can successfully incorporate a can...
I wonder if any early precursor or experimental trial pieces had any success in the 1850 to 1886 time frame - I confess I know almost nothing about this frame of reference.
Mike
QUESTION! Saw a guy selling something similar, to your "MICRO-RONI"at a gun show. I told him it was Verboten, and the feds were going to haul him off to he gray bar hotel. If they caught him selling it to everybody, who wanted to turn their G 17 into a PDW. He told me that it was legal and I was full of beans. (Only beans wasn't the word, he actually used). Whats the straight skinny on these type of accessories. That convert G 17's into PDW?
The fine threads on the muzzle are surprisingly strong so it would require a barrel bending force to strip those threads. It might be possible to damage the threading of an a softer metal such as aluminum.
After doing some early/late shooting while hunting, I haven't noticed ANY muzzle flash from our suppressed rifles.
While generally repeatable in mounting, the connection between suppressor and host is not consistent enough to allow mounting a front sight on the can body.
While it may be acceptable to use something like wire pulling lube inside a can to increase the effectiveness under specific circumstances, it's much too messy and creates cleaning issues that would make it unacceptable for general use. I tried the "wet can" method ONCE and said "Never again" long before I got all the mess cleaned up.
As Mark said, you'll likely only grab the hot can once and learn from the initial experience. We seldom shoot more than 4-5 times while hunting so heat isn't an issue but we usually wrap stretch camo tape on the can anyway.
Another tidbit that wasn't mentioned: Suppressing the muzzle blast doesn't change the sound of super sonic bullet crack.
And an oil filter has baffles but also has additional material filling up the spaces inbetween - yes under certain circumstances a wet medium or oil bath / saturated content...
Certainly we are all familiar with the laced eyelet leather cover seen on the British sten gun or Australian Owen - I am sure I have seen such protective barrier applied to several SMG's of that time frame...
Not only to insulate from heat but to provide a non slip grip or cover up a reflective metallic surface finish...
And while not speaking of elaborate front target peep sights - a simple field expedient aiming focal point to extend the sight radius would greatly enhance accuracy on short rifles or pistol carbines or SMG's...
When I was doing extensive inspection and cleaning and citation and research and test firing of a private collection of 50+ sub machineguns I used a rare earth magnet from a DBX bookshelf speaker to temporarily attach a crude front sight to barrels and shrouds and cans...
I also tried with some success taking a Williams fiber optic fire sights in high visibility radioactive puke green front and rear sight set and using a number of attachment methods...
Magnet and adhesive strip and elastic band and even some screw adjustable band clamps...
I played with parts of sight sets from Thompson muzzle loader and air rifles and assorted military surplus take off pieces...
Some more successful than others and some more attractive and ergonomic than others.
Having snapped off a match grade front globe aperture insert front sight extension during competition - shearing off fine interconnected threaded section I wonder about somebody buggering up the threads on a can or even snapping it off while engaged in a 3 gun shoot or under vigorous overzealous field testing....
I have also seen barrel weights from a high standard match grade set up adapted to attach to the bottom of a can to help tune the overall balance of the gun and enhance stability and enhance handling characteristics...
Could an integral synthetic cover system be added to a can similar to the external appearance of the M203 grenade launcher that would protect and armor the can against handling abuse while also promoting a positive and temperature neutral textured ribbed non slip gripping surface???
How does diameter and length of a silencer or suppressor affect performance or is it more based on the internal baffle design architecture...
Comments on silenced air rifles - compressed air guns???
Sarco had imported a small batch of silenced nagant gas seal target revolvers and a bunch of unassembled components and parts - I was privileged to be able to uncrate and explore and inspect and curate and clean and test fire several...
There was quite a debate regarding the curio and relic or antique pre 1899 status of guns with a silencer - and I don't believe it was ever completely resolved despite several batfe letters being issued on the subject - I never did find out if and how they finally ruled on and resolved these questions.
There was also a Spanish handgun that had silencer features incorporated into the fixed attached integral barrel that caused concern in certain circles.
Mike
I have an engineering background and have designed my own "Form 1" suppressors. I can honestly say that it takes a lot of baffle wizardry to overcome internal volume in suppressor design. A big, cheap, simple can is often as effective as an exotic, expensive design with a smaller size. The problem is that big cans don't handle well, are often heavy, can change POI significantly and "cheap" materials don't stand up to the heat/stress inside a can as well as inconel, titanium, stellite, and such.
The successful suppressor manufacturers spend a lot of time and money looking for the magical design that does a great job while being as light/small as possible. I don't begrudge them the prices they ask(well, most of the time anyway).
PS
My statement above is part of the impetus for my 9mm AR pistol build. I can Form 1 ($200 stamp fee plus a few $$ in parts)an adequate suppressor capable of handling a 10.5" 9mm but a can capable of handling a 10.5" .223 and doing a decent job of suppressing it costs $400-700 plus $200.