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Curio & Relic Question

nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 35,988 ******
edited September 2019 in Ask the Experts
I just came from the BATFE website, looking for an answer, but I still have a question.

I know that a C&R that's on "the list." must be complete and not overly messed with. Example would be a Yugo SKS less than 50 years old. In its original form, it's C&R, but change it up from original and it's not anymore.

So, how about an old military rifle that has been substantially changed from its original condition, BUT it is over 50 years old?

I'm asking because I have a seriously bubba-ized Arisaka, even relined to a different caliber, and a 1891 Argentine Mauser that has been somewhat sporterized.

If they are C&R, I'll sell them as such, but if they're not, I'm fine with it.

Comments

  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 8,270 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm not sure on the Arisaka, but the 91 Argy falls under Antique status if the side rail says Manufactura Loewe Berlin. If it's marked DWM, the serial number needs to dated for Antique status. If it's Antique(made before Jan1,1899) modifications don't apply, non gun, mail it to their front door.
  • rufesnowrufesnow Member Posts: 241
    edited November -1
    This is how i feel, regarding C & R's. If the older military rifles have been sporterized, as far as being cut down. Either wood or metal or both. So that their physical appearance, has appreciatly changed, from when they left the arsenal. They are no longer C & R.

    Refinishing is the kicker, as far as C & R status though. Where i live, in the middle of no where. Of all things. That showed up at one of our small, hole in the wall gun shows. Was a Swedish, M 40, in 8 X 62 mm. Totally original, except some previous misguided owner. Had completely refinished it. Both wood and metal. Made me cry, when I saw it. Couldn't hardly believe it. in this case iMHO, it would have still be considered C & R. As it was totally original, except for the refinishing.
  • mrmike08075mrmike08075 Member Posts: 10,998 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Refinish should not apply to or impact on C&R or Antique status. It's just cosmetics.

    It does not in any way materially alter the fundamental architecture of the gun.

    Even most mild sporters are not affected - if you can swap stocks and switch out a few modular plug and play pieces and return it to close to original it should not apply or have an impact.

    It's mostly cosmetic or easily reversible.

    Now if you change calibers or make a fundamental alteration to the guns architecture IMHO it's no longer a C&R or Antique.

    As an example the French take the MAS1936 bolt action rifle and retaining just the receiver turn it into the FR7 and FR8 modern 4th generation sniper rifle...

    It's not the same gun any more.

    Everyone here is honest and above board and try to strictly adhere to the rules - and we are informed educated curious individuals.

    However I would bet that there are a ton of guns built on receivers that once qualified as C&R or Antique that have been heavily modified and had the architecture materially altered that end up changing hands / being recorded as / put in the bound books as what they once were not what they now are...

    Or in the case of an antique or non gun that has been updated and turned into a modern cutting edge advanced firearm avoids any paperwork at all.

    I have two dozen guns that I have refinished cosmetically that I still consider antiques or C&R pieces - retaining their original status.

    But to Nunns point - they were making Mauser sporters and changing calibers and turning military guns into more modern sporting arms well before WWI & WWII

    Take a German commission Mauser and rebarrel it - changing the caliber. If it was done between 1886 and 1945 is it still a period correct vintage piece that retains C&R or antique status.

    A trapdoor Springfield is a good example - it's been materially altered but the changes were made over 100 years ago...

    Mike
  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 35,988 ******
    edited November -1
    OK. The Argentine is an antique. Kinda pretty though. Thanks. I tried to put a picture here, but the file is too big.

    The question is: If we know a firearm to be at least 50 years old, does it matter that the stock has been customized and the caliber changed? Does it retain C&R status by virtue of its age alone?
  • MIKE WISKEYMIKE WISKEY Member, Moderator Posts: 9,961 ******
    edited November -1
    "If we know a firearm to be at least 50 years old, does it matter that the stock has been customized and the caliber changed? Does it retain C&R status by virtue of its age alone?"..................no it does not retain C&R status, take a ww1 mauser, put it in a sporter stock & screw a .30/06 barrel on it and it becomes a 'modern' sporting rifle.
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,456 ******
    edited November -1
    "If we know a firearm to be at least 50 years old, does it matter that the stock has been customized and the caliber changed? Does it retain C&R status by virtue of its age alone?"..................no it does not retain C&R status, take a ww1 mauser, put it in a sporter stock & screw a .30/06 barrel on it and it becomes a 'modern' sporting rifle.

    Right in the TEN-RING.

    27 CFR ?478.11, defines Curio or Relic (C&R) firearms as those which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.

    Once these rifles are "sporterizd" they become exactly what MW said: modern sporting rifles which are of no special interest (notice that they must be of special interest and not general interest) to collectors.
  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 35,988 ******
    edited November -1
    Thanks for the replies.

    Here is the Mauser:

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/834582828

    And the Arisaka:

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/834587653

    In case you want to look at them, or even buy one.

    I would like to know whether the Mauser retains its antique status. Anyone?
  • dfletcherdfletcher Member Posts: 8,162 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    nunn wrote:
    OK. The Argentine is an antique. Kinda pretty though. Thanks. I tried to put a picture here, but the file is too big.

    The question is: If we know a firearm to be at least 50 years old, does it matter that the stock has been customized and the caliber changed? Does it retain C&R status by virtue of its age alone?

    Regarding retaining C&R status based on age alone, no. Regarding "customized and caliber changed" as you'll most likely conclude there is no hard and fast answer even for the term "original military configuration". I recently picked up a DGR reworked M1 Garand, beautiful Wenig stock & rechambered to 308, and there was some questioning as to whether C&R status still applied. The LGS ultimately said OK.

    ATF publishes guidelines, such as stock or finish changes, addition of scope mounts and caliber changes as being acceptable. FWIW, in any grey area I tend to apply a two part test. First, is the change visually noticeable and second, can the change be readily reversed without a trip to the gunsmith.

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-firearms-are-considered-be-curio-and-relic-firearms
  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 35,988 ******
    edited November -1
    I'm playing it safe. I have edited both auctions to reflect the rifles must go to a dealer/manufacturer FFL.
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