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Milk Jug test
hadjii
Member Posts: 976 ✭✭
Ok. So today I decided to test a few bullets for expansion using milk jugs filled with water.
First bullet was a .257 dia, 117 grain btsp. Its grouping at 1/4-3/8" @ 100, so its shooting wonderful. The bad news is, at least in my opinion, it failed miserably when shooting into milk jugs. It penetrated to the 4th jug, but lost 55% of its 117 grains. Don't think I'll be hunting with that bullet. Some people like bullets that come apart, however, I'm not one of them.
Next bullet was a speer, 120 grain hot cor. Same .257 dia, coming out of my 25-06. Best accuracy I've found with it yields about 1 1/4" @ 100. It too lost alot of weight. About 51% of 120 grains. I was really surprised at that. Guess I won't be hunting with it either.
I changed diameter, and tested a 200 grain, woodleigh bullet coming out of my marlin 338MX at about 2400 fps. Grouping at about 1 1/2" @ 100. Good enough for this rifle. It penetrated to the 5th jug and retained 197 grains out of 200, and was a perfect mushroom. Just too bad they don't make a bullet in 25 caliber.
After I finished, I ordered a box of 100 grain swift sciroccos for my 25-06. I shoot them in my 264 win mag, my 300 rcm, and my 338 rcm. They shoot like lasers with target-like accuracy, and testing I've done shows they retain at least 80% of original weight.
I called the Hornady tech guy and told what I found with their bullet, and he said my test was too unreliable, that water was too inconsistent of a medium to be shooting into. Really? I'm not believing that, but hey, perhaps he's right.
First bullet was a .257 dia, 117 grain btsp. Its grouping at 1/4-3/8" @ 100, so its shooting wonderful. The bad news is, at least in my opinion, it failed miserably when shooting into milk jugs. It penetrated to the 4th jug, but lost 55% of its 117 grains. Don't think I'll be hunting with that bullet. Some people like bullets that come apart, however, I'm not one of them.
Next bullet was a speer, 120 grain hot cor. Same .257 dia, coming out of my 25-06. Best accuracy I've found with it yields about 1 1/4" @ 100. It too lost alot of weight. About 51% of 120 grains. I was really surprised at that. Guess I won't be hunting with it either.
I changed diameter, and tested a 200 grain, woodleigh bullet coming out of my marlin 338MX at about 2400 fps. Grouping at about 1 1/2" @ 100. Good enough for this rifle. It penetrated to the 5th jug and retained 197 grains out of 200, and was a perfect mushroom. Just too bad they don't make a bullet in 25 caliber.
After I finished, I ordered a box of 100 grain swift sciroccos for my 25-06. I shoot them in my 264 win mag, my 300 rcm, and my 338 rcm. They shoot like lasers with target-like accuracy, and testing I've done shows they retain at least 80% of original weight.
I called the Hornady tech guy and told what I found with their bullet, and he said my test was too unreliable, that water was too inconsistent of a medium to be shooting into. Really? I'm not believing that, but hey, perhaps he's right.
Comments
I guess that is why there is a standard block of ballistic gelatin, so tests are meaning full as possible when comparing loads and bullets.
Small caliber - high velocity - usually results in explosive expansion. Way back in the day P.O. Ackley swaged pure copper bullets for the 220 Swift. They had a small hollow point to control the expansion.
Well, and one other advantage is that it's alot easier getting bullets out of a milk jug than the ballistic gel.
I would find it hard to abandon a cartridge bullet combination shooting with that accuracy if it was repeatable. But I understand the concern when it comes to bullets disintegrating more quickly than desired. The solution is to use bonded bullets such as the Nosler Partition and the Swift Scirocco which you suggested. Bonded bullets will give that picture perfect mushroom when recovered especially with these higher velocity, smaller caliber bullets.
Yes ballistic gel is much more expensive than it needs to be because it's market driven by the needs of Federal agencies which will buy it no matter what the price. Once again, inexorably greedy, not capitalism.
I needed a huge supply of it for a semi-long term testing assignment and even with the amounts I needed the supplier wouldn't reduce the price enough to be reasonable. So I took the opposite tact and bought the mixers, propane stoves for cooking it, chilling containers, the huge reefer to cool all of the gel I needed for a couple of sessions and the testing equipment to verify the content of the gel. Don't try this at home kids...
Enjoy the process!
Best.
As far as the hornady repeating, yesterday I shot a 1 1/2" group with them @ 200. That's about as good as I can shoot, and the last 4, 3 shot groups were 5/8" and under to 1/4". They just worry me a little with terminal performance.
On a side note, with this particular rifle, and it could very well be my shooting skills, but I'm not having much luck getting flat base bullets to shoot as good as I'd like. Not sure if this is normal or not, or if it's the bullets or perhaps the powder. I just don't know about that anomaly.
I've had some really bad experiences
I use my hollow point and exploding bullets on crows and varmits, not on large game that I want to recover.
I've seen some really contrary rifles over the years.
If a bolt action rifle is not glass bedded properly you are usually just wasting time and money. I glass bed my hunting rifles so as when I remove and re-install the stock the gun still shoots to the same POI at 100 yards. (barrel is always floated, no pressure points)
I usually start with a sierra varmeter flat base bullet of the correct weight for the barrel twist.
I try different powders and in the larger calibers I try H4350, H4831, RL22. H4831 was my favorite powder for large calibers but had to go to other powders due to corrosion of the powder, brass and bullets.
Make sure it's not the scope.
After I get a group I can live with, I then test my higher priced hunting bullets and expect the group to open somewhat because they are not designed to use as target bullets, but I still expect a consistent cold bore group with no flyer outside of 1 1/2 inches at 100 yards.
I do not test the first cold barrel shot with a oily bore, I run a degreaser patch through first usually a patch soaked with lacquer thinner. When I think a hunting gun is grouping good I test fire several rounds shooting only one shot at a target over several days from the guns cold bore and if the group is 1 1/2 inches or less you have a good accurate hunting gun. (gun needs to ALWAYS put the first shot on target)
I've seen some hunting guns that would not shoot good groups with a clean bore, only after several shots (6 shots or more) were fired through the bore. These types are immediate rejects.
This type testing will also test your shooting accuracy skills. A gun cannot be any more accurate than the shooter.
A very accurate gun can make the shooter look good. A gun that is not accurate can make a good shooter look bad.
Good luck to you.
Your chamber was probably cut with a reamer which allowed for the shorter 85/87 grain bullets to be fired at high velocities. This was before many of the long/heavy for caliber bullets showed up.
Your quandary has been in the back of my mind since I read it the first time. I was looking through my more current notes and found some data which runs almost parallel with the ballistician. I have been working with Re-23 after having foregone the use of the less temp stable powders in that line. My loads are similar to his suggestion for Re-19 except substituting Re-23. These loads are based on the next higher node of velocity and has shown good accuracy.
Method to check bedding stress:
"When you are ready to measure (potential stress), flip the rifle upside down and put the barrel in a padded vise, leave a couple of inches between the forend tip and the vise. Set the magnetic base directly on the barrel and rest the indicator tip on the "bottom" of the forearm. Zero the indicator. Loosen and tighten each guard screw one at a time. If they are both loosened at one time the stock will want to fall off, so...one at a time. Check the readings and record them for each screw. If there is stress, when the screws are loosened the action will want to move back to it's relaxed position and will move the needle. If the needle "bounces" it can indicated a bent guard screw or bind on the screw. For "target" guns we strive to keep the needle between 0.000" and 0.001", for hunting guns 0.001" to 0.002" is fine."
This is a simple check for the possibility of some stress remaining after bedding.
Best.
This is basically what I do. I'll have to further explain later. I'm in a thunder storm. I've been doing this for so long that I can do it more easily just using a hand held dial indicator.
I'll explain later.
I'm back. I check a rifles action after I've glass bedded (and on others if I see it's been glass bedded) for any movement as explained above by using a plastic jawed dial indicator (to keep from scratching the barrel and stock with steel jaws) and I can do such by just laying the rifle on a padded table and select a hollow ground screwdriver that fits the action screws properly and I can just hold the non marring plastic jaws of the dial indicator in my hand, just snug at the stock's fore end and over the top of the barrel and watch the dial indicator, first as I loosen and tighten the front recoil screw then next the rear tang screw then vice versa and I watch for NO MOVEMENT AT ALL. You can get a feel using your fingers to hold the jaws of the dial indicator so as you are not applying any pressure yourself. Of course I'm referring to a barrel and stock that has been free floated back to within about 2 inches forward to the recoil lug. You might be surprised how easily you can make the dial indicator move by just applying pressure to the jaws of the dial indicator with two fingers which is bending the barrel or stock's fore end with finger pressure.
If the dial moves any, the action is not bedded properly. If the dial indicator moves up I remove the action and place a made shim washer, usually made from aluminum roof flashing of about .010 thick inside the stock at the front recoil lug and re-test. If it moves less or not at all I know I need to skin bed this area little bit higher. If the dial indicator gets less when loosening the recoil screw or the tang screw I shim at the rear tang and test. I sometimes leave the shim washer in place when skin bedding. If the gun is the 3rd screw type with the screw in back of the magazine box, it's only snugged when testing. Hard to believe that you can make the receiver area completely flat with no movement all when properly bedded. Takes some practice using my caliper method of checking. If you can get an assistant to operate the screwdriver at first until you get familiar it's easier.
Keep in mind when doing this test that .001 movement of the dial is approx. 1 inch at 100 yards and if a guns action is not flat in the stock on the dial indicator, even glass bedded it's warped when the action screws are tightened and the rifle will not shoot consistent accurate groups, usually.
If I were you I would do as nononsense suggested and test with some lighter bullets and I would also test H4350 powder since I see no mention of it with your existing bullets and the lighter bullets. (H4350 powder I've found is more user friendly than IMR4350) Load the minimum load, then the average middle load then 1 grain under max if the middle average looks ok. If the minimum and middle average load is a 2 inch or larger group no need in any further testing of this powder with that bullet. Of course if your bedding fails the test you need to go back and re-test your most accurate load that almost worked. If the gun is preferring boat tail bullets, this tells you the barrel prefers the longer rifling bearing surface of a bullet and you should be able to find a boat tail hunting bullet of that approx. weight.
Takes lots of patience when you run into a PITA one, but you will be proud of yourself when You find what combo the gun wants. Let the gun tell you what it wants instead or you trying to tell it what you want. (main thing is forget about the old wives tale of adding a pressure point for best consistent accuracy, it's BS.
So, today, I did just as the swift guy instructed me. Loaded up 5 groups of 3 rounds, starting at 53.5 grains, up to 55.5 grains, in .5 grain increments. The best chrono numbers were at 54.5 grains. Avg velocity was 3242 fps with an ES of 8.69 and SD of 4.69. The grouping was terrible @ 4 1/4 inches. Best grouping was @ 54.0 grains @ 1 7/8 inches. At 53.5 grains, 2 shots were 1/2 inch, and 1 shot wasn't even on target. BTW, powder I was using was R-19, as the swift guy suggested. I went back and loaded up 3 more of 53.5 grains and 54.0 grains. At both loads, the groupings were 4+ inches. At that point, I just put the gun back in the cabinet.
I loaded up 3 rounds using R-19 and a charge of 54.5 grains, seating .040 off lands to shoot in my ruger no 1, 25-06, to see what they'd do. It was almost dark when I squeezed off the 3 rounds, but grouping was @ 1 3/8 in a straight vertical line. With my no 1, that doesn't bother me much at all, because it was almost dark, and I was kinda rushing. Once again, my no 1 is making my Winchester 70 look pretty crappy, and I just don't think that should ever happen.
Nononsense, I just reread your last post, and to clarify one thing, the winchester 70 I have is a new, portugal made 70. I may have run approximately 200 rounds through it.
Yes, it can still be a problem with the bedding or even something related to the bedding. I was piecing together the other loads and groups together then comparing them to the 3/4" groups. Usually when we see this many big swings there is something decidedly moving around even in very small amounts. However, I still wouldn't toss the idea about the barrel...
Barrel harmonics is a tough subject to tackle when trying to establish a base line for developing new loads. Normally we use the same tried and true methodology of adjusting the powder charge then trying to tease the bullet seating related to the lands into compliance. Sometime though, using a change up like your Sciroccos is the most useful. Usually when I find a slightly more difficult rifle to be a challenge, I try something from the old standards for bullets like the Partition/Scirocco or one of the Sierra milder ogive, older technology bullets to establish the base line. Then if these prove to be of little help, I look to the mechanics of the stock and barrel.
Here is the small indicator set up used for checking the bedding stress:
Many of these do not require huge sums of money to own them. I have a whole range of these, probably over a dozen with some costing as little as $20-$25 complete. You do not need to spend much more than this for your project but it will come in handy for other occasions.
Best.
BUT:
We assume you are shooting at about 100 yards and
YOU FIRST NEED TO CONFIRM THE VERY WILD FLYERS.
Make a sheet of freezer paper and put some 2 inch circles on the target paper and do not shoot at the same circle when testing. (a bullet may be going into a same hole and you think it's a flyer) this will confirm it's a bad flyer.
If you find it's completely missing the target you have severe issues other than bedding. (bad scope/scope mount or barrel.
I've seen couple of 30;06 barrels that had severe flyers at 50 yards. On both guns I removed the action from the stock, (so the stock would not get soaked in bore cleaner) soaked the bore in Hoppe's Number 9 for couple days then run in a clean white snug patch and the patch was solid green indicating copper fouling. I then very casually used a 30 cal bore brush few more patches then re-soaked the barrel in Hoppes Benchrest #9 for 3 days and kept re-testing until the patchs quit turning green. The barrels came around good. You will have to clean the Hoppes Benchrest #9 from the bore brush before storing the brush or it will eat up the copper brush. I' also use shooter choice but do not leave it in the barrel very long. Hoppes Benchrest #9 is the best for detecting green patch copper fouling. Some bore cleaners are not for soaking a bore.
I've also seen some barrels I've rejected some barrels because they would not shoot a tight group until they got fouled from 5 or more shots. They Would throw flyer when good and clean and eventually just start moving into the target the more often they were shot. I seen a new 7mm08 gun's barrel (which is normally very accurate) doing such recently. Would start out 3-4 inches off target and eventually just move on target and would group good from a cold or hot barrel and long as the barrel's bore was not cleaned.
I've seen quite a few bad scopes, some just a little bit bad, which is kinda like being just a little bit pregnant. (when I see a flyer I watch for the flyers direction, for example one flyer same direction from a 3 shot group. I then rotate the scope 90 degrees and start shooting, if the flyer goes 90 degrees it's the scope. Had a friend waste several dollars on 300 Winchester magnum ammo before he brought me the gun for testing and I confirmed the scope was bad, I installed one of my known good scopes and all ok. I told him to dispose of the scope and go buy a Leuxxxd (that has a lifetime warranty, but he sent the scope to the factory 9(the factory was getting ready to close then) and when it come back it was worse. It was a old expensive Redfield scope, but I've seen bad Bausch and Lomb, and lots of Simmons and Bushnells bad on hard kicking guns. If I suspect a scope is not adjusting correctly and a hint that it might not be staying zero'ed good I put it on a very gun that I know is accurate and capable of shooting a 2 inch square at 100 yards and adjust the scope at each shot and see if the scope adjustments will produce a good square with the adjustments. If one (left right or up down) is not adjusting correctly I then know the scope is not consistent when adjusting. (has weak springs on the erector tube, probably) Takes a very accurate gun and shooter to confirm such at 100 yards from a rifle.
Get yourself a plastic jawed dial indicator and with just a few attempts you will get the idea about easily testing your other guns bedding. On my hunting guns I have them flat bedded and I can completely remove the stock and re-install and the gun shoots with-in 1/2 inch or less as before. (some wood stocked guns the barrel channel at the foreend will crawl sideways after relief floating so re-check with a folded dollar bill or equal every once in a *'s age to make sure all is still floating and dead action bedded has not changed.
I thought you indicated that it's losing bullets, not even on target anywhere and sometimes the 117 were opening up severely erratically shoot good one day and not the next type of groups.?????
Are you indicating that the 117 Hornadys are averaging a consistent one inch groups? (but you do not want to use these as a hunting bullet)
2 things okie743. 1st is that the hornady 117's I'm using is of the interlock variety, and 2nd, my portugal made winchester is of the 2 screw variety, where the bottom metal and floor plate are of one piece. Not sure that makes any difference, but thought I'd mention it anyway.
Ok. I went back and read your posts again. Hornady has a 117gr INTERLOCK bullet boat tail that is designed as a hunting bullet. I've got into some PITA rifles that only want one bullet type and only found one powder and usually these rifles had a very long slim tapered barrel. (barrel vibrations is what you are tuning for) If that is a interlock bullet I would just go with it for deer sized game. If not a interlock, try the Interlock.
I also weigh each hull and get the weight within 3 grains for the 243 to 30-06 calibers. Mixed up hull weights can make a very accurate fineky gun produce opened up groups, like from 1/4 inch group to a 2 inch group just by mixing hull weights. By neck sizing only if a gun has a very tight camber the hulls can be reloaded several times.
I neck size hulls when working up a load and keep count of how many times I HAVE TO TRIM A HULL and 3 trims to lengths is usually when a hull is getting weak at the neck or Web. I use a marks a lot pen to keep count of the times they are neck sized and times they have to be trimmed. After 3 trimmings instead of disgarding, I keep the hulls for reduced recoil, low velocity loads. (I have some 30"06 and magnums guns that are very accurate at 30/30 velocities and fun for women and kids to shoot with minimal recoil and I can use the hulls for working up low velocity loads) I've got a granddaughter that shoots a very accurate low recoil load in a 7mm magnum hunting deer sized game. (We do not tell the guys it's a reduced load with minimal recoil)
If you have a dial caliper even a steel jawed type you can check (just enough to get an idea before going looking for the magnetic type or plastic jawed caliper of the bedding being flat) the bedding with a helper, just be careful and don't scratch the barrel and stock when using a steel jawed caliper. You cannot use tape on the jaws of the caliper or gun (to keep from scratching the finish) because you are looking for any movement from .001-.005 or worse. each .001 movement when loosening the screws is approx. 1 inch at 100 yards. If the bedding is little bit off and you correct such most likely the 117's will become one holers consistently. Also make sure the center screw on the Winchester is not tight just snug during the tests and when shooting. (I use threadlock on it so as it stays just barely snug. Also make sure the recoil lug screw and the rear tang screw is floating, not touching (rubbing) wood or pillow blocks, they just just fall out when loosened.
Good to hear that someone else is tackling a PITA gun. I've had some that I just had to put them on the back burner for awhile and think about such in spare time or take them to the gun range when working on another gun. I've also had to take one of my accurate guns to the range with me sometimes to confirm that I could still shoot ok when I was testing a erratic PITA gun.
I do not even use a chronograph when trying to find a accurate consistent re-load.
I wait until after I have found a accurate re-load then test with a chronograph for the results, too see the velocity and the chrono readout of the accurate re-load recipe. I'm looking for consistently accurate loads. I prefer a rifle that puts a bullet where I'm aiming, rather than a really fast bullet not being CONSISTENTLY on target.
I got a chronograph to help be work up loads with low ES, etc, but the chronograph is no longer used for such. The chronograph remains on the shelf until I've found a load THAT THE GUN LIKES.
I've seen re-loads when viewed on a chronograph that the bullets should have went into the same hole and they would be way off from each other. I've seen the opposite when I find the sweet spot that the gun wants for good accuracy using reloads. Run the reloads through a chronograph and the chrono would indicate that the reloads should not be shooting accurate but the gun would be producing dime size groups.
First take the magazine box out and dial test. If still the same .005 movement place shim washer at the front recoil screw pillar. (80% of time the front recoil ONLY is where it needs shimmed on a Winchester if the dial indicator goes up in movement) You can make the shim washer for preliminary testing from a plastic card or I use aluminum roof flashing, or folded aluminum pop can. You need about .010. If the dial goes down in movement the rear usually needs shimmed, but sometimes both the tang and recoil area. Test the latching of the floorplate with the magazine box out also
I've got into few Winchester and Rem's that I had to take the magazine box to my belt sander and take about 1/16-1/8 inch of metal off the floor plate end of the magazine box because the stock was in-letted too deep for the action from the factory or the bottom floorplate area was inletted too deep and the magazine box was pushing hard on the bottom of the floorplate area. (shimming the action up 1/8 inch was not an option so as to get magazine clearance) I get all of this floorplate and magazine box area fitting correct BEFORE I GLASS BED, but at times I still have to take some off the bottom of the magazine box before bedding so as the barrel line looks correct in the barrel channel. (the magazine box should not be pushing on the floorplate area it float little bit) Sometimes due to inletting too deep at the floorplate area I have to shim UNDER the floorplate and or trigger screws to get floorplate and magazine box fit correct.
Also when the tang area is shimmed pay attention to the barrel clearance getting closer to the foreend of the stock. (may touch due to little bit of shim at the rear is lots less float at the front of the stock barrel channel. (pay attention to the float on the barrel when shimming) Sometimes a magazine box is about 3/32 too long and if action is shimmed UP for the magazine box the barrel is too far up out of the channel and looks bad at the foreend area, this is why the magazine box has to be cut down in height.
Simply getting a floorplate to latch correct and user friendly on some rifles can test your patience. If still not latching correct with the magazine box out I've seen everything from the head of a action screw offset from the shank of the screw (common on Winchester replacement screws) You can spin the screw in a drill and test such and see that the screw head is out of alignment with the shank or slightly bent screw, inletting little too tight at the rear of trigger guard, center screw head too thick, etc, floorplate slightly warped from previous installiations, etc.
.005 movement is too much. I get them to no movement.
This probably won't get your very large other bullet groups much better but it will make you existing guns groups more consistent.
When you go back to the range after getting the bedding dead, the group may be shifted somewhat on target and require a scope adjustment. Fire a 3 shot group at a target before attempting any scope adjustment to check grouping.
I've found that when I get no movement on the dial indicator I can remove the action from the stock as needed for cleaning, inspection, etc and re-install and the guns groups are very very close to previous settings. You will find that acraglass bedded metal if ignored will rust in the bedded area if ignored unless it's stainless steel. Will rust faster and more severely that in wood and a black matte finish will rust lots faster than a gloss blue metal.. So needs little TLC inspection at times.
At what ranges do you test your 117 gr bullets from the 25:06?
Reason I ask is I never really done any milk jugs tests, but I've found that most generally bullet failures due to separation (exploding, jacket and core separating, or loss of most of the lead core) happens at close ranges from Hi Velocity guns, like 30-60 yards. If animal is 100 yards or more for the Hi Velocity calibers (approx. 3000 fps or more) the less chance of bullet failure. I've seen severe bullet fragamation from for example a 264 Win Magnum shooting 120 gr bullet at around 3200 fps at 60 yards. I've even seen hunting bullets try to ricochet or skip off side of a animal and not penetrate internally if animal is at a angle, usually from a HV rifle when this happens. (similar to a bullet or rock skipping on water)
One embarrassing :oops: example of a HV smaller caliber rifle bullet failure at close range.
I've seen deer sized game shot broadside in the shoulder with a 220 swift at around 50 yards and the animal would have to be chased down and shot again. Seen this more than once. The first wound would look like a hand grenade had went off on it's shoulder/hide missing and little bit of meat gone. (due to bullet explosion)no exit wound and very little if any internal damage to the animal.
Vel around 3400 fps and a 60 gr bullet) At longer ranges the bullet performed ok.
BTW, as far as bedding goes, I have never used acraglass. The only thing I've used on the 10 or so rifles I've done for myself is pro-bed 2000. Good, bad, or otherwise, I like it.
My 100 yard target range is just out the back door also now. It was really a pain few years ago when I got into a PITA rifle and had to load up everything and haul it about 500 yards to test and then load up and return to house to try another reload recipe.
I finally fixed a 100 yard range off the back porch at that place for preliminary testing. (could just go back inside reload
another recipe and go back out and retest within 30 min's or so. (no close neighbors at that place either)
Sounds like redneck testing here, but I have no close neighbors and live in a very rural country area and dirt roads. Wife does not even complain. Even the wildlife is not gun shy anymore.
Maybe about consistency but it's one of the major steps towards more consistent accuracy especially to make the gun shoot to same POI as the stock is removed and re-installed. Getting it dead is what nononesense and I was indicating when we said PROPERLY BEDDED ACTION. I would never have went into detail if you had not asked about such and I see several guns that are not properly bedded or even bedded and then a pressure point left in place at the fore end of the stock. (some from the factory)
You need to eventually skin bed the recoil lug area with the washer installed.
Are you bedding in front of the recoil lug and if so how far forward of the recoil lug?
I bed in front of the recoil lug for about 2 inches or the length of a chambered hull then the barrel is free floated the rest of the way out of the stock by about 3 folded sheet of paper. (at least float with two folds or a dollar bill. Right now that area forward of the recoil lug is up in the air with .015 clearance.
Go ahead and test and let us know if you got any shift in the point of Impact and what your group looks like.
Did you spin your action screws in a drill to see if the heads and shank is in alignment? I've seen lots of allen head and regular head replacement action screws that are really off center heads or bent and this results in the floorplate shifting or moving around as the screws are turned. (floorplate area see saws and results in all not being in same place each time they are tightened and the floor plate latchup is erratic.
Also YOU WILL find when glass bedding a action or even skin bedding that you need to use spring loaded clamps (two with one located at the rear tang and one at the recoil lug action area) or surgical tubing instead of the action screws when the action is set into the bedding using stock making screws. I like the big spring loaded vinyl cover wood workers clamps and set them each direction and this lessens the chance of a slightly cocked action.
Another tip that will save a lot of time:
If you use the guns regular action screws and pull the action into the stock's wet bedding even slightly snug with the tang and recoil screws the action after the glass has dried will generally be warped on the dial indicator 90% of the time and require skin bedding again. Spring loaded wood workers clamps with the vinyl covering or surgical tubing is what is needed for just little pressure as the glass is drying.
You mentioned 6.5mm rifle. I have one 6.5mm that is very very accurate. Easy pickings to 550 yards on animals. They act like lightning struck them when hit. Stainless steel factory blued barrel. It's the Old Remington 700 264 win mag, 26 inch barrel that people bad mouth about throat erosion, etc..
Just happened to come by the gun dirt cheap few years ago.
I HAVE TO USE premium Hunting bullets, nosler partitions or the little more accurate nosler solids 120, 140 grain in the gun if animal is inside 100 yards due to the HV. Very unusual in that it likes several recipes on powder and bullets.
Guess I was incorrect in using the action screws. I have several of the big spring clamps. I'll use them tomorrow when I skim bed.
Thus has been a heckuva good learning experience, I'll say that. Between you and nononsense, lordy, you taught me alot. Thanks a bunch. I'm bettin' this rifle is gonna shoot a little different, and hopefully better. We'll see in a few days.
BTW, I did check the screws. They were fine.
Get yourself a set of these stock inletting screws or you can make them if desired. Or just get a joint of steel dowel rod and thread your own in your spare time.
They are long and allow alignment as you are setting the action into the bedding more user friendly . I lightly plug the stock tang and recoil lug screw holes with clay and the long headless stock inletting screws push out the clay as the action is set into place.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1006448136
My spring clamps are 3 inch jaw opening and handles have a length of about 10 inches. I find the clamps more user friendly than surgical tubing
Tape the vinyl covering on the jaws good because it can slip off and scar the metal or stock. I've never tried the 4 inch opening ones they might be ok and more user friendly. You have to be stout to open and hold the jaws open on these with one hand when applying them. I try to get one directly about the recoil lug area and the other at the rear of the action about where the bolt enters the action and place them 180 degrees from each other and I use the floorplate and/or trigger guard on bottom of stock so as to keep the stock inletting screws aligned (not tilted) and this also keeps the action from being slightly cocked or tilted in the stock. Seems strange but I've found that using the regular stock screws will most generally result in the action not getting bedded dead flat in the glass. (and the inletting screws keeps everything aligned as the action is going into the wet glass)
https://www.amazon.com/Bessey-XM7-3-Inch-Metal-Spring/dp/B0006694NC/ref=sr_1_11?hvadid=78546413370433&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=3+inch+spring+clamps&qid=1570802399&sr=8-11
Yes, you need to skim bed before real world testing because the action is not setting on the bedding firm at the barrrel/recoil lug area.
(not the desired consistency for a good desired flow for when the action is being inserted into the stock)If it's too thick the eposxy will actually upset (break through) the release agent and then stick to the metal, etc)
Reason I ask is sometimes old bedding epoxy is too thick, both parts too thick or just one part or even when you open a new batch you can tell it's going to be too thick or grainy when mixed for proper desired flow)
I have a recipe for easily making it the proper consistency if it's too thick or grainy is why I ask you.
I've opened up new bought epoxy that is not proper consistency for a good flow when mixed. I prefer about consistency of margarine. (not runny but easily flowable under slight pressure and won't quite drip) Epoxy that is little to hard when applied will upset or break through the release agent and bond to the metal and you will end up with a action glued to the stock sometimes and this is a real PITA.
To get epoxy to the consistency that I prefer I heat some water (get it very hot) then put the hot water in a shallow pan or bowl then set the unmixed epoxy containers into the hot water for few minutes and then after few minutes start stirring until it's seems right consistency. You have the option of softening the whole batch or just the amount you want to use. Just watch and do not get water into the epoxy.
Keep changing the hot water until the batch starts warming.
I do not mix the epoxy parts together before using hot water because when the epoxy is warmed it will set up faster. Mix it after you get each part to the proper consistency.
I use sharpened wooden popsicle sticks to trim the outside exposed squeezed out epoxy after it's cured somewhat, but before the epoxy gets rock hard. (when it's about like butter it will trim but not stick to the trimmers) The wooden trimmer sticks do not scratch the metal or stock but are sharp enough to cut the epoxy.
Before applying a skim coat to cured epoxy I use a Dremel tool and drill small holes at angles and I also have a dovetail Dremel bit (bottom of the bit is wider than the top) and cut few grooves so as to get a good lock in and bonding of the thin coat of bedding to the cured coat. Use a toothpick to get the new epoxy into the small drilled holes.
Skim coating is sometimes a slight PITA. (trying to get the action dead on the caliper for a second time)