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Serf - economics question

BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 6,671 ✭✭✭✭
Educate me please. I see in your posts many references to fiat money. What would be your replacement? As it stands now wealth is not finite. If it was, then as it was spread out we each would have less and less as our share. What would we assign an artificial value to that could guarantee our currency. Whatever it is would you be OK with the government confiscating it to control said backing? None of the economics courses I took provided a viable alternative to the current system. Just wanted to know your thoughts on the matter? Bob

Comments

  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,530 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2020
    Remember when the stock market crashed in 2008. FDIC bank insurance on deposits was guaranteed up to 100K. Sure it was. Then the Federal Reserve changed the rules to 250K to make all deposits feel good. Now the facts... The banks own your money in their bank . Not until you try and retrieve it or withdrawal it they can give it back. What if they don't have it ? Just think of another run on the banks like in the great depression. They don't have your money it is invested the way they want in loans, mortgages or elsewhere. Good luck getting it.  I might also add say you wanted to retrieve 25K to buy something. Most banks wouldn't have that much in reserve and would have to get it to you the next days. They put in an order.
  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 6,671 ✭✭✭✭
    Remember when the stock market crashed in 2008. FDIC bank insurance on deposits was guaranteed up to 100K. Sure it was. Then the Federal Reserve changed the rules to 250K to make all deposits feel good. Now the facts... The banks own your money in their bank . Not until you try and retrieve it or withdrawal it they can give it back. What if they don't have it ? Just think of another run on the banks like in the great depression. They don't have your money it is invested the way they want in loans, mortgages or elsewhere. Good luck getting it.  I might also add say you wanted to retrieve 25K to buy something. Most banks wouldn't have that much in reserve and would have to get it to you the next days. They put in an order.
    When you make a bank deposit you are loaning the bank your money at a really bad interest rate. Not saying that I have a better solution but that is the way it is. Will the bank default on the loan you have given them, who knows. If they don't default then with a piece of plastic in my wallet I can purchase goods and services in most of the civilized world. Convenient and probably more secure than having gold or silver buried in the backyard. As far as getting cash from banks - outlying branches here might not have 25 grand on hand but the main location does. Bob
  • hobo9650hobo9650 Member Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭
    Anytime anyone withdraws more than $10,000 per month the bank is required to notify IRS.  I went in to withdraw $26,500 since I was truck shopping.  The bank teller started to lecture me on how I could not do that, said IRS Must be notified.  "So Notify them.  If you can't, seems I need to change banks. " 
    Tried to get me to take a certified check.  "No, don't know where I will buy the truck."
    Finally got my money.  Teller was angry when I left.  People waiting in line were not happy.  

    If the market drops very much tomorrow, I will start taking money out of both banks.  
  • spasmcreeksrunspasmcreeksrun Member Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭
     screw the low wage teller...time to cancel that bank....100%.....if a bank fails, your (what used to be your money) goes the the bottom of the list and you may be last in line to receive just a small portion or none of that amount deposited
  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,217 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2020
    BobJudy said:
    Educate me please. I see in your posts many references to fiat money. What would be your replacement? As it stands now wealth is not finite. If it was, then as it was spread out we each would have less and less as our share. What would we assign an artificial value to that could guarantee our currency. Whatever it is would you be OK with the government confiscating it to control said backing? None of the economics courses I took provided a viable alternative to the current system. Just wanted to know your thoughts on the matter? Bob
      When the debt being held at 1% for 30 years then that's a very big sign the FED's are flooding the market with more funny money digits and need to keep  the illusion of sound money system riddle with exponential growth of nothing but electronic digits with massive debt with waste and fraud. 
             Next is the Bail In promise of being a share holder and if you have over 250,000 in the bank you get a good flat-top haircut!
       Even a pay- off with FDIC insurance will cause more printing and debt.  The gig is about up for the banksters why do you think a gold allocation shift over in The city of London was pushed through recently? Somebody knew what is coming.

                                          serf
                 
    Everyone with a pension fund or 401K invested in stocks better hope the Fed becomes the buyer of last resort, and soon, as once stocks crater 50% or more, there's no way to recover the $16 trillion that evaporated, or stop the dominoes from falling.


  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,530 ✭✭✭✭
    Whole different ballgame this time. Everyone is upside down
  • mohawk600mohawk600 Member Posts: 5,529 ✭✭✭✭
    Go back to the gold standard
  • spasmcreeksrunspasmcreeksrun Member Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭
    you would see the world awash in tears when the Great American Give-a-Way ends.....it has bought us no respect, no appreciation, drawing out the greed and  avarice of "leaders" of countries whose citizens still live in despair......our time is done and America will decline after this carnival of waste falters.......
  • mohawk600mohawk600 Member Posts: 5,529 ✭✭✭✭
    you would see the world awash in tears when the Great American Give-a-Way ends.....it has bought us no respect, no appreciation, drawing out the greed and  avarice of "leaders" of countries whose citizens still live in despair......our time is done and America will decline after this carnival of waste falters.......
    wow
  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 6,671 ✭✭✭✭
    Without knowing what other post led to this OP, a couple points about the OP.  I'm sure you know this, but "Fiat" money / currency isn't some sinister or conspiratorial concept, it is just a word used to describe a form of currency with no value in its own right, in other words, no intrinsic value.  The only reason it can exist is because it is propped up by the trust of the people who use it.  Saying the US Dollar is a "fiat" currency is just simply stating a fact.
    My former BIL (he recently passed) was the Dean of Economics at Canisius University in Buffalo.  We had some pretty interesting discussions over many years about the subjects of 'mediums of exchange' starting with barter economies all the way to present day economics.
    If I understand your premise, you are correct in saying commodities are finite, and if you pick a commodity for a medium of exchange which is abundant it will have little value.  This makes that commodity difficult to scale upward.  On the other hand, if you pick a commodity which is rare for your medium of exchange, it doesn't scale well downward.  The bottom line is...commodities in general don't scale well enough to be used as mediums of exchange.  This is why "fiat" currencies were created, because they scale better.  However, the problem comes when these currencies get highly leveraged, and other 'people' control the things which leverage these currencies.  The true 'value' of the currency doesn't stay the same with respect to the things "the people" use it for, the things they buy to live.  Ta-daaaa...enter stage-left that nasty word called..."inflation".  And because these currencies aren't pinned to a commodity, and are capable of being manipulated by governments, without the consent of the people, their values change.
    I don't know what the answer is, but I do know one thing...the whole subject of banks not letting you have your money after you've deposited it with them pisses me off to unimaginable levels!!!

    It wasn't one individual post, but an accumulation of posts decrying our monetary system and predicting disaster without providing an alternative solution. Your post was very well thought out and provided a good overall picture of the economy that seems to coincide with the teachings I have had regarding economics. If our system crashes then I don't think having gold or silver will do you much good. If you have an ounce of gold and are starving someone would sell you their extra loaf of bread for that ounce and don't expect any change. What would be worth more that ounce of gold or a box of 30/06 that you could use to feed a family for a year?
    As for going back to the gold standard now, I think that is impossible. The govt either would need more gold and that means confiscation, or they could raise the price of gold astronomically to cover their currency. That would simultaneously devalue the dollar and make gold hoarders wealthy. Not sure that would be a popular solution. The wealth of a society has no bounds and our currency just allows us an easy way to transfer that wealth. In normal times I would rather have someone pay me the debt they owe with a hundred dollar bill and not 20 chickens. Bob


  • asopasop Member Posts: 9,020 ✭✭✭✭
    How come no one here has brought the influenced of the Federal Reserve :#
  • chmechme Member Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭✭
    Sidebar to this high level discussion- ran across an interesting (to me, anyway) measure of inflation, and of the cost of living.  Can be applied across national borders, or within different regions of a country.  To do this, you need an occupation in common, and a commodity in common.  OK- so..... wadawe got?  

    Just about every place from New York to Tokyo to Buenos Aires has buses- and bus drivers.  And just about every place has a,,,,, McDonalds.  (North Korea and Cuba excepted.  There IS one at Gitmo).  Look at how long a bus driver will work to be able to feed a family of 4 Big Macs, fries, and a drink.  Does not matter what you call your money.  You can compare years in the same place, and you can compare different place at the same time.  Pretty damned accurately.  If you are going to work 3 hours to get the same thing, it gives me a pretty good idea of the relative value of a dollar, peso, rand, yen, pound, ruble or drachma. 

    Think I should ask for a gummint grant to study this.  Will meet you at McDonalds..... 
  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,217 ✭✭✭✭
    BobJudy said:

    It wasn't one individual post, but an accumulation of posts decrying our monetary system and predicting disaster without providing an alternative solution. Your post was very well thought out and provided a good overall picture of the economy that seems to coincide with the teachings I have had regarding economics. If our system crashes then I don't think having gold or silver will do you much good. If you have an ounce of gold and are starving someone would sell you their extra loaf of bread for that ounce and don't expect any change. What would be worth more that ounce of gold or a box of 30/06 that you could use to feed a family for a year?
    As for going back to the gold standard now, I think that is impossible. The govt either would need more gold and that means confiscation, or they could raise the price of gold astronomically to cover their currency. That would simultaneously devalue the dollar and make gold hoarders wealthy. Not sure that would be a popular solution. The wealth of a society has no bounds and our currency just allows us an easy way to transfer that wealth. In normal times I would rather have someone pay me the debt they owe with a hundred dollar bill and not 20 chickens. Bob


                   Well lets see all those Central Banks stop buying and hoarding that gold and become like The  Canada socialist government and sell it all off as industrial commodity and allow all fiat currency to be the only allowed instrument for wealth.
     A cashless society with a crypto-gold back currency under the direct control of One world authority sounds more plausible.
      It will work for all those doubters after the implosion of fiat paper money if good controls are in place. Of course it's the start of a one government but that was the plan to Begin with however . ;)Otherwise they would not be hoarding it since it was outlawed
     in 1933.
                                                              serf

  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 6,671 ✭✭✭✭
    I ask for a viable alternative to the fiat monetary system that we have and you only give me tin foil hat observations. Yes banks have gold. They also have real estate, stocks and bonds and other assets. This diversification is the same as any prudent investor does. The one world authority conspiracy believers must have a lot of faith because the evil illuminati aren't making much progress. The ban on private gold ownership was rescinded in 1977 and even with capitalism greatly raising the value of gold there still isn't enough in existence to back the U.S. economy. The govt has about 261 million troy ounces which translates into about 3/4 ounce per citizen. That means they can back about $1200 of your cash/savings with gold. Bob
  • kannoneerkannoneer Member Posts: 3,402 ✭✭✭✭
    In the Depression, banks failed. This means that the people with money in them got nothing. In my youth I knew many people who did not trust banks. They never recovered from losing all their money. Even safety deposit boxes were emptied. 
    As time has gone on, all the  people who lived through that have died off and the current population has no idea what a Depression is. I hope they never find out.
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,530 ✭✭✭✭
    I was 12 when my great grand pappy died. A large German immigrant who lived thru the depression. Luckily they had a farm and grew food and bartered with folks. They had hogs, chickens, livestock. He said valuable things in hard times was ammunition and liquor. Both brought a premium.
  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,217 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2020


    Not sure exactly where you're headed with this, but I take pretty strong exception to a "one world authority" controlling anything to do with money.
     Congress will roll over and vote for it just like they did on 9/11 with The Patriot Act I & II in my opinion.
    "Read the Bill Act" would require bills to be posted publicly 72 hours prior to consideration in Congress. never pass did it?
     Now you know why! The republic is no better than congressional members who sell us out. Time and time again.
                                                 serf


        I’ve been telling my readers that an epic market crash is very likely before the end of Trump’s first term…

    That’s because the magnitude of a crisis is directly related to the amount of malinvestment getting flushed from the economy.

    In other words, the bigger the boom, the bigger the bust.

    And right now, there is an unprecedented amount of malinvestment waiting to be flushed, thanks to seven years of 0% interest rates and the $3.7 trillion the Fed “printed” after the 2008 financial crisis.

    The Fed inflated the housing bubble with about two years of 1% interest rates. So it’s hard to fathom how much it distorted the economy with seven years of 0% interest rates.

    The Fed ended up creating not just a housing bubble, or a tech bubble, or a bond bubble, but an “everything bubble.”

    It’s the biggest bubble in human history.

    When it pops, people will panic and demand that politicians do something.

    This will be the perfect opportunity for the globalists to finalize their pet project: a global central bank that issues a global currency.

    In that sense, The Economist’s 2018 prediction may end up close to the mark.




  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,530 ✭✭✭✭
    One Wild Card... the credit card and loans on new cars. Banks are at 0 interest on investment. Folks are shying away investing in Banks. Their loan programs along with CC debt could rock the economy if it goes south. Same thing all over in 08 with banks loaning money to folks who could not afford homes. Credit card debt ratio could upset the apple cart.
  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 6,671 ✭✭✭✭
    serf said:


    Not sure exactly where you're headed with this, but I take pretty strong exception to a "one world authority" controlling anything to do with money.
     Congress will roll over and vote for it just like they did on 9/11 with The Patriot Act I & II in my opinion.
    "Read the Bill Act" would require bills to be posted publicly 72 hours prior to consideration in Congress. never pass did it?
     Now you know why! The republic is no better than congressional members who sell us out. Time and time again.
                                                 serf


        I’ve been telling my readers that an epic market crash is very likely before the end of Trump’s first term…

    That’s because the magnitude of a crisis is directly related to the amount of malinvestment getting flushed from the economy.

    In other words, the bigger the boom, the bigger the bust.

    And right now, there is an unprecedented amount of malinvestment waiting to be flushed, thanks to seven years of 0% interest rates and the $3.7 trillion the Fed “printed” after the 2008 financial crisis.

    The Fed inflated the housing bubble with about two years of 1% interest rates. So it’s hard to fathom how much it distorted the economy with seven years of 0% interest rates.

    The Fed ended up creating not just a housing bubble, or a tech bubble, or a bond bubble, but an “everything bubble.”

    It’s the biggest bubble in human history.

    When it pops, people will panic and demand that politicians do something.

    This will be the perfect opportunity for the globalists to finalize their pet project: a global central bank that issues a global currency.

    In that sense, The Economist’s 2018 prediction may end up close to the mark.




    Serf you have to do better than someone who writes for Internationalman Doug Casey. He is the one warning about global economic collapse in one breath and in another moving your investments to other countries. He uses examples like we could turn into Rhodesia or Cuba during their upheavals. If the U.S. economy crashes it would cause a domino effect and crash the world economy. Remember when the U.S. housing bubble burst and caused a global recession? Not sure what good foreign investments would be then. If America turned into a Cuba or Rhodesia now could you access those investments anyway? Your cited author has been predicting a market crash before the end of Trumps first term. He must be omniscient to have known about a health crisis so far in advance but at least he thinks Trump will have a second term. How many of these "expert" financial advisors are wealthy billionaires and how many are just con artists? Bob
  • Butchdog2Butchdog2 Member Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭✭
    I think the banks are required to report over 10,000.00 cash transactions whether it is coming or going and on a day to day basis.
  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,217 ✭✭✭✭



    Serf you have to do better than someone who writes for Internationalman Doug Casey. He is the one warning about global economic collapse in one breath and in another moving your investments to other countries. He uses examples like we could turn into Rhodesia or Cuba during their upheavals. If the U.S. economy crashes it would cause a domino effect and crash the world economy. Remember when the U.S. housing bubble burst and caused a global recession? Not sure what good foreign investments would be then. If America turned into a Cuba or Rhodesia now could you access those investments anyway? Your cited author has been predicting a market crash before the end of Trumps first term. He must be omniscient to have known about a health crisis so far in advance but at least he thinks Trump will have a second term. How many of these "expert" financial advisors are wealthy billionaires and how many are just con artists? Bob
            The Greatest Debtor will be the biggest loser in any reset after a stock market crash,how they reset is anyone's guess but if they don't sell all the gold they are hoarding and turn it into a true commodity metal then it will hold more value than old currency conversions rates. In fact after 1933 gold when from 20 an ounce (estimate) to 35.00 overnight after confiscation by Roosevelt.

         If they get a renewable energy like hydrogen fusion on line then I would say gold heydays would be over however as money.
                                                              serf 
                                                                    

  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 6,671 ✭✭✭✭
    Well, I posted all I know... so you guys are on you're own. 
    I have nothing 'smarter' to add.  I'm just a dumb guy.
    Actually FCD I enjoyed reading your posts. There seemed to be actual thought involved on your part instead of just parroting doomsday websites that seem to be just a little one sided. I guess if those websites didn't sensationalize for some of the masses then they wouldn't get many advertising dollars. It is kind of amazing that the monetary doom predictors are in it for the money they say will be worthless soon. Bob
  • BrookwoodBrookwood Member, Moderator Posts: 13,768 ******
    This has been an interesting read.  Enjoyed all the intelligent logic regarding the ins and outs of our complex monetary  system. 

    Being a simple country boy all my life I have found that trying to understand what greases the nations wheels (or the worlds for that matter) can often times seem oxi-moronical.  The importance of keeping personal finances balanced and living within ones means MOST important. All this while watching our own gov't overspending with the cavalier attitudes of having infinite resources. 

    I have concluded after living nearly seven decades, that for me the backing for my own personal monetary standards have gone full circle.  Just as it started with pop bottle deposits. It now is concluding with beer can deposits.  The only REAL money I actually see these days and put into my pocket.  Everything else is just numbers tanked into an open account via direct deposits.  Is this real money? I have often asked myself over the last few years.  

    Sophisticated folks may laugh at all this but as I said earlier, I'm just a simple country boy. 


  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,217 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2020
    Operating Governments are just like a Religion,the oligarchy that runs it spends billions on who The main preacher is going to be and faith handler in their money schemes.When the faith falters then there is a revolution .Next time around the elders are going to form a one world currency and guarantee that New system of profit sharing (wages) and other kinds of investments to increase profits will be fair and equatable.
      No more shady operators and currency manipulators and side bets will not be allowed to form a schism of disharmony. Seeing Trump kissing the flag will be meaningless .
       They Will need to confiscate all weapons of war just Like Joe Biden has preached to the choir. In time there will be no need for manual labor and A.I. and the world corporation running it will call back the faithful to the fold. It's not a conspiracy theory it's called progress with safety and security for all. You will become part of the collective or be eliminated.
                                                serf
  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 6,671 ✭✭✭✭
    I kind of doubt that there will be the sort of forced utopia that you are predicting. Basic human nature will not allow it to happen. Will there be changes in the future? Yes, but every system including the one you predict either comes to an end or is modified by each generation, sometimes by force. A couple of examples would be Rome or Nazi Germany. Will the world accept
     your vision of the future or is this just another bump in the road as society advances. The difference between you and I is that you concentrate on the gloom and doom and I try to see all sides of the big picture before jumping to conclusions. If panic, worry and conspiracy theories make you happy then more power to you, but having a more open mind is the path I choose to follow. 


    Looking back over the posts I see you still have not given a viable alternative to our fiat currency that worries you so much. What will the founders of your new society use as a basis for their currency. Also when their new system of wages and investments come into effect what is your definition of fair and equitable? If a new Steve Jobs or Bill Gates comes along what should their compensation be? Bob



  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,217 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2020
    Actions are louder than words,so let's watch it unfold. If you think you pink rose glasses are working go invest in those 50 year bonds The US Treasury is selling now. I know they would appreciate the faith you have forth coming before the altar.
                                                                               serf
  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 6,671 ✭✭✭✭
    serf said:
    Actions are louder than words,so let's watch it unfold. If you think you pink rose glasses are working go invest in those 50 year bonds The US Treasury is selling now. I know they would appreciate the faith you have forth coming before the altar.
                                                                               serf
    So you have no answers to the questions put forth and have resorted to Ad Hominem style comments to deflect away from the original discussion. I give up. You win. Now where did I put that Reynolds wrap coupon? Bob
  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,217 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2020
               Time and unforeseen occurrences will make your proposition to exactly predict the new class of money difficult and A.I. being unleashed will make future profit schemes for man mute. It's a new dawn coming ready or not. The petrol dollar will fail. I have stated that crypto-gold backed bitcoin could be one rabbit out of the hat for you see the priest in Greece sanction gold a long time ago.  The golden fleece is at hand again, Golly look what's in The CIA library below!
                                      serf

                                                       
    Hall's conspiracy theory of history as driven by an elite cabal of roving immortals, they are far out-weighed by the comprehensive information here on other subjects.
  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 6,671 ✭✭✭✭
    serf said:
    Operating Governments are just like a Religion,the oligarchy that runs it spends billions on who The main preacher is going to be and faith handler in their money schemes.When the faith falters then there is a revolution .Next time around the elders are going to form a one world currency and guarantee that New system of profit sharing (wages) and other kinds of investments to increase profits will be fair and equatable.
      No more shady operators and currency manipulators and side bets will not be allowed to form a schism of disharmony. Seeing Trump kissing the flag will be meaningless .
       They Will need to confiscate all weapons of war just Like Joe Biden has preached to the choir. In time there will be no need for manual labor and A.I. and the world corporation running it will call back the faithful to the fold. It's not a conspiracy theory it's called progress with safety and security for all. You will become part of the collective or be eliminated.
                                                serf
    Now I'm really confused!
    I thought we were doing the 'Ninteen Eighty-four' thing here in this discussion...but now we've fast forwarded to 'Star Trek TNG' and the Enterprise is being assimilated by the Borg.  Man, I feel like I just got whiplash...in a 'Back to the Future' kinda' way!!
    Sorry FCD but you have it wrong. I think Serf is going more for The Terminator style of future. A.I. is going to send Arnold back in time to get me! Bob

  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,217 ✭✭✭✭
    Bo
    Now I'm really confused!
    I thought we were doing the 'Ninteen Eighty-four' thing here in this discussion...but now we've fast forwarded to 'Star Trek TNG' and the Enterprise is being assimilated by the Borg.  Man, I feel like I just got whiplash...in a 'Back to the Future' kinda' way!!
    Sorry FCD but you have it wrong. I think Serf is going more for The Terminator style of future. A.I. is going to send Arnold back in time to get me! Bob

    bJudy said:

     

    'O ye of little faith! MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER’; but you are making it a ROBBERSDEN.”

    Pretium Laborum Non Vile






  • BrookwoodBrookwood Member, Moderator Posts: 13,768 ******
    Ayaaaaa…..What's up Doc?
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