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Why does NJ outlaw hollow point for concealed carry?
Mr. Perfect
Member, Moderator Posts: 66,372 ******
I suppose y'all have heard about that guy that was arrested for having hollow points (which are legal to have in NJ, just not in your carry weapon see here: https://www.njsp.org/firearms/transport-hollowpoint.shtml). I think I remember seeing a post about it on here anyway (if folks don't know, here is a link to that story: https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/nj-carry-licensed-security-guard-arrested-so-called-hollowpoint-ammo/#axzz6HuVjFYF6).
Regardless, the law is beyond ridiculous. And like with all ridiculous things there is little chance there was any sort of reasonable explanation for it. I suspect the law was made out of complete ignorance of science, physics, and public safety, but was rather borne out of fear and ignorance. But there must be some basis for the law, right? Someone didn't just dream up that hollow points bad, FMJ good, did they? I had heard it speculated they follow the NATO guidelines for ROE. Is there any truth to that?
Regardless, the law is beyond ridiculous. And like with all ridiculous things there is little chance there was any sort of reasonable explanation for it. I suspect the law was made out of complete ignorance of science, physics, and public safety, but was rather borne out of fear and ignorance. But there must be some basis for the law, right? Someone didn't just dream up that hollow points bad, FMJ good, did they? I had heard it speculated they follow the NATO guidelines for ROE. Is there any truth to that?
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Comments
Well the US never ratified the 1899 Hague Convention so Im not sure why we don’t use them in war.
NJ- What a ridiculous law.
To answer your question - "why?" Simple. You have to keep adding straws before you can break a camel's back.
I blame it on the water.
I think it probably has more to do with the need to penetrate barriers and light armor?
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Subjectively would you rather be shot while wearing a standard LEO vest with insert plates by an expanding dish nosed hollow point or full metal jacketed ball ammo...
IMHO the FMJ ball would have a better chance of defeating the body armor...
I would think the dish nosed expanding hollwpoints would fail to penetrate for several reasons.
Yes the crazy talk and myths bandied about in NJ LEO communities through the union and due to poor training saw the hollow point round be named cop killer...
Then you get into the body armor versus bullet proof vest issue...
Then it's terms like high powered rifle (ever here one called low power)
And it's almost impossible to obtain a CCW in NJ - just does not happen.
And I believe the hollow point issue in NJ was that if you used one while committing a crime you were in trouble due to sentence modifiers.
We sold hollow points in the gun shop and we're confronted weekly by LEO's saying they were illegal - they were wrong.
Jmho
Mike
You would think LEO's in NJ would want hollow points to be used by exactly everyone, so as to eliminate their risk. Why wouldn't they lobby for it? I simply do not get it for that reason alone, but shouldn't they also be lobbying to change the law due to the possibility of over penetration? But they get to carry the good stuff, so they probably don't care.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
And when I did have the right to carry in NJ under the auspices of the gunship I often carried hollow points...
Including a super dished out copper coated prefragmented hollow point were the cavity was filled with a clear epoxy - with tiny copper covered shot inside...
I imagine surgeons would have trouble getting at all those fragments and ameliorating the massive trauma
It's also why I like #7 1/2 shot trap load for home defense - good luck pulling all those pellets out before a bad guy expires.
If I were LEO I would worry about any and all centerfire rifle rounds and shot shells...
I think that up until very recently getting shot in the vest with damn near any rifle round would result in death...
I don't want first responder to be injured or killed on the job - but I also don't want to live unarmed in a police state.
We have a retired / on disability LEO friend in the gun club who lost an arm after being shot with a TC Hawken muzzle loading rifle in the shoulder...
Until they start deporting or executing those who commit a crime with a gun - or for real give them live in prison - a bare bones no privilege facility I don't know how to stop such crime - they don't even talk about the black firearm holocaust in Detroit or other urban centers on the new any more.
Please don't misunderstand me - I will argue the points bit that does not mean I want dead cops.
Mike
I agree with Mike. It is almost unheard of to get a CCW permit in NJ. Not even retired LEO's get one. You have to be politically connected to even think about applying for one.
I (unfortunately) lived there for about 20 some odd years, until finally moving back down to TN. when my Son turned 18. (Divorced/Joint custody.)
I had my firearms collection hidden in my pickup with a camper top on it, (loaded in the very front, you would have had to unload the entire truck to get to it.) Long guns locked in a Thule box on the roof of the cap. I breathed a HUGE sigh of relief when I crossed out of NJ headed south. I would have made the news big time, if busted.
Yes, even BB guns are considered "Firearms," in NJ. Crazy stuff.
They banned or tried to ban everything...
M1 carbines or any gun that resembles one...
AR platforms for the longest time - and the so called Jersey legal ones are a joke...
No magazines with a capacity over 15 rounds - then they made it 10...
The Barret light .50 was banned - no man hole covers or helicopters were shot - no gang banger bought one on the street and robbed a liquor store - can't hide it under a coat or in pants pockets...
A $5,000.00 - $10,000.00 package to rob the chicken shack???
No LEO was ever shot with any of these banned guns - oh except for one time an LEO was unloading his and shot his partner in the behind - true story...
Certain brands of cheap poor quality handguns get used in a high percentage of crimes - you know which ones...
If you have a tube fed .22 rifle in NJ and the tube can hold more then 10 shorts technically you are a felon.
I have a pinfire revolver that has a 12 round cylinder - I guess I should be in prison...
Mike
The Limits of Optimism
New Jersey Man Faces Jail Time for Transporting an Antique Pistol
‘Idid break the law — to my shock,” Gordon Van Gilder tells me over the phone. He sighs. “Legally, they’re right.”
The “they” in this equation is the state of New Jersey. The “I” is Van Gilder, a 72-year-old retired schoolteacher from the town of Millville. And that “law-breaking”? Well, that could be extremely costly indeed. For transporting a 300-year-old flintlock pistol without a concealed-carry license, Van Gilder has been charged with a second-degree felony — specifically, with “unlawful possession of a handgun” — and he is facing a maximum of ten years in state prison. This, he suggests, is “unbelievable.”
Van Gilder’s ordeal began last November, when the car he was traveling in was pulled over by police. At the time, he and a friend were on their way back from a meeting with an antique dealer. “I’m very interested in the 18th century, both here and in Britain,” he tells me over the phone. “I’ve collected a lot of 18th-century items. I have some things from the Continental Army, including some personal documents — letters and so on. But I’m more interested in the things they made. My house is full of 18th-century furniture. I have little spoons, glassware. It’s an obsession of mine. I’m not a gun collector per se, but I think they’re interesting.”
The gun in question, Van Gilder says, “was probably made about 1765 in Belgium — for the British market.” A dealer found it in Pennsylvania, and held it for him. “I paid $800 for it. It’s a boxlock pistol, so there’s no hammer. It’s beautiful.”
Having picked the gun up, Van Gilder and his friend first went to lunch, and then they headed home. “My friend was driving because my arm is shot,” Van Gilder recalls. On the way home, the pair were pulled over by a local sheriff. According to Van Gilder, the detaining officer told him that he wanted to search the car, and threatened him with dogs if he refused. “I didn’t mind,” he tells me, but he wanted to make sure that the officer knew that there was a flintlock pistol in the glove compartment, and that he had just purchased it. “Oh, man,” Gilder says. “Immediately, he wanted to arrest me. But when he called the undersheriff, he was told, ‘No, it’s a 250-year-old pistol; let him go.’”
The officer did as he was told, and gave the pistol back. The next morning, however, he came back — “with three cars and three or four sheriffs.” Van Gilders says, “He told me, ‘I should have arrested you last night.’” So he did. “They led me away in handcuffs” and, at the station, “chained me by my hands and feet to a cold stainless-steel bench.”
“I’ve never been handcuffed in my life — or arrested, even,” Van Gilder explains. “I was embarrassed and ashamed. The only prisoner there was myself: a 72-year-old English teacher. I was really ashamed.”
Before long, Van Gilder had been charged and the gun had been taken away for “ballistics testing,” almost certainly never to be returned. (That the department believes that a ballistics test on a flintlock pistol can be useful should give you some indication of who we’re dealing with here.) “They’ve angered me,” Van Gilder concedes. “But technically, by New Jersey’s law, the officer was probably right.”
That, sadly, is true. Indeed, according to Van Gilder’s lawyer, Evan Nappen, Gordon has fallen foul of a “fundamental flaw” in New Jersey’s law. “Classifying this pistol as a weapon,” Nappen says, “is absolutely absurd. We’re talking about a crime that carries a minimum mandatory sentence of between three and a half and five years.”
#page#The federal government, Nappen notes, “doesn’t even consider this gun a weapon.” (By the terms of the 1968 Gun Control Act, few firearms manufactured prior to 1898 are subject to federal law.) “This is an original flintlock that predates the founding of the country, and was made before New Jersey’s laws were passed. But they’re treating it the same as if it were a .44 Magnum.” The idea that he was breaking a law, Nappen concludes, “never crossed Van Gilder’s mind. It’s an antique. He had no intention of shooting it. It wasn’t loaded. There was no flint, no powder, and no ball.”
I knew him - he would display guns at shows - like a historical display...
Nappen spoke at our gun club about the case...
It's pure and utter madness - lunacy.
Criminal abuse of power - should have been thrown out of court.
But I will allow that NJ law does not allow you to buy a handgun out of state - without going through their ridiculous permit process...
As states the feds don't consider it a gun - NJ does including matchlocks and pellet pistols.
Mike
I would opine that had the gun been in a locked case stored in the trunk things might have gone differently...
I think you had a charged up officer who heard gun in the glove box and went postal - and surely to white guys in their 70's don't fit the profile
The rub may have been that because he failed to transport it according to state law and had no firearms id card - and a gun in the glove box this officer lost his mind...
What was he pulled over for and why was he threatened with the use of the dog???
Something's just don't add up right.
Mike
Charges were dropped by the district attorney . No word if he got the gun back
The d-rats hide the fact that almost ALL gun crime emanates from their ruined demoncrap s*** holes so they have to blame Joe Smith from Main Street not triple felony daquan from MLK Blvd.
God forbid they should accuse the petulant pets of their destroyed city plantations who are doing 90% of the violence.
BTW the d-rat prosecutor dropped the charges quietly when the story went national. Why? Because it was a black man who was victimized by the clueless untrained politically corrupted PD.
The security guard was following all the regulations, The stupid cop did not know the law.
The man had Critical Defense IIRC with the plastic? plug in the nose which in NJ are NOT classified as HP.
NJ demonrat commies hate firearm owners. NJ firearm owners hate the d-rats.