Police and arresting methods

.22 L.R

With the trouble some police have in arresting non compliant individuals nowadays (that end in shootings) why aren't they allowed to use good old fashion "lead blackjacks". Where tasers sometimes fail one smack up the side of the head with one of these and they'll be in the back of the police cruiser before they can say 1,2,3.  They will wake up with a hell of a headache but they won't be dead

mark christian

The problem with hitting people in the head is, despite movies and TV, you either really pi$$ them off, which causes them to fight back, or you stand a good chance of killing them. In real life, knocking someone unconscious without injuring them is not as easy as it is on TV. This is exactly why Tasers were developed. 

Back in the days of wooden batons, cops weren't trained to strike suspect in the head- all that did was break the baton. The night stick was used to strike in the solar plexus, or a vulnerable spot like a knee cap.

mohawk600

If resisting.......they should be beaten senseless and suffer their stupid actions.

.22 L.R

If striking them in the knee caps works then do it. Virtually all of these shootings start with one thing in common. Someone not being compliant when given specific orders to do something, Better for them and the police that they suffer in pain then end up dead. Less fuel for all the liberals to use against the conservatives. I'll bet if they gave George Floyd a clear understanding of what he was about to get if he didn't get in the back of that police cruiser he might have changed his mind and still be around. Al least they couldn't say you didn't warn him.

Smitty500mag

What's troubling to me is how little the young cops know about taking someone to the ground. When I was a kid that was a big part of our daily play was wrestling and putting a head lock on a friend and throwing him to the ground and pinning him down. We did that all the time just goofing off. I watch cops on TV these days and they look like a bunch of pansies that couldn't take down a fat girl in a wrestling match. 

TrinityScrimshaw

36 years as an LEO, and I never even saw a lead black-jack.  I once had a pair of sap gloves that had powdered lead in them, but I never used them, some one stole them out of my car before I could.

Trinity +++

Nanuq907

Thank you for your service. 🙏🏼

I say make the new cops play a year of hockey. Reach across with your left, grab the opposite shoulder, tenderize with the free right, sweep the back of the knee and step back as they drop. 5 seconds max.

chme

I carried a sap- lead blackjack.  We were trained NEVER hit them in the head.  As Mark said- you either pizzed them off, or you killed them.  Solar plex, knee/ ankle/ wrist/ elbow.  And you were probably going to need another shirt because yours had been ripped up.  Rather than a headlock, wristlock.  And then there will be the Saturday night you meet the drunk pulpwood cutter that is so musclebound that you need 2 sets of handcuffs...............

Nanuq907

Chme, thank you for your service too!
Did you ever read any of the Lee Child books?  His character, Jack Reacher, sounds right up your alley.

Mobuck

LAWYERS
Are the issues driving police restraint methods.
FWIW
As mentioned hitting a human in the head hard enough to assure a knockout can result in serious injuries--it's not TV/movie stuff.

nunn

Draw an imaginary line across the body at nipple level.  Any strike with hand or impact weapon above that line is deadly force, and is only justified when the use of deadly force would have been justified.

I carried a sap before the aforementioned guideline, and have hit people in the head when I didn't know any better.  Rarely did it gain compliance, and nearly universally required a trip to the ER for stitches.   Also before the "nipple" rule, we were taught the collarbone strike with the baton.  Good thing about the collarbone strike is breaking the collarbone causes severe pain and inability to use the arm on that side, so the fight is over.  Bad thing about it, is it is very possible to miss and hit the head.

Kneecaps were not recommended targets; too bony an apt to break.  Main target taught in baton classes was the outside of the thigh.  Forearm strikes were OK too, to discourage grabbing at oneself.  I never hit anyone with a baton.

I also had a pair of sap gloves, but never hit anyone with them.  I ended up selling them at a gun show.

buddyb

I saw an older deputy have to give a wanna be tough guy a whack across the outer thigh with an expandable baton.Tough guy dropped like a sack of potatos.

chme

Sap gloves were great for when you were directing traffic.
You wound up with arms that looked like Ahnold's!  

mark christian

I've had this laying around for twenty years. It came in the personal effects of a retied CA police officer. Note the brass screw which the officer could polish. If you "smack someone up the side of the head" with this thing, if he wakes up at all, he's going to the emergency room. A "hell of a headache?" More like a hell of a lawsuit. 

nmyers

So, why have I not seen batons being deployed by those attempting to put down urban insurrection?  I've seen several rioters hit with a Taser,  but they often kept on doing mischief, especially if they were wearing a puffy jacket.

Neal

gruntled2

mark christian said:

The problem with hitting people in the head is, despite movies and TV, you either really pi$$ them off, which causes them to fight back, or you stand a good chance of killing them. In real life, knocking someone unconscious without injuring them is not as easy as it is on TV. This is exactly why Tasers were developed. 

Back in the days of wooden batons, cops weren't trained to strike suspect in the head- all that did was break the baton. The night stick was used to strike in the solar plexus, or a vulnerable spot like a knee cap.

Just this week they had an episode of Adam 1-12 in which a lady cop jabbed a guy in the stomach with a baton. It was just a TV show but it looked pretty effective. 

.22 L.R

Some of the forum members should go to "officialhodgetwins" web site and listen to what they say about some of these recent incidents involving police shootings. These are 2 conservative black men who pretty much say it like alot of  common sense individuals probably see it.

gartman

Have seen many videos of cops trying to arrest someone without telling them why. Seems to greatly escalate the confrontation. Is there a reason why police do this?

mark christian

Although dated by nearly 50 years, Adam-12 remains one of the best cop shows ever made. Jack Webb, the show's creator and producer, had the full cooperation of the LAPD, up to and including the chief of police.  Adam-12 remains an amazing look into big city policing from half a century ago. 

I still watch it.

montanajoe

Here are the same techniques they taught us at the M.P. school in '77.

 https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/18816NCJRS.pdf

montanajoe

And then came the PR-24

cbxjeff

I thought I read years ago that blackjacs (if they are still called that) were illegal.  Perhaps my info was incorrect.

nunn

I like Adam-12 and Dragnet, both Jack Webb creations, and watch reruns now and again.

There are two extremes in styles of police officers.  One one end, you have the by-the-book, straight-arrow, never-written-up-or-suspended-for-any-sort-of violation, Jack Webb cop.  On the other, you have the alcoholic, divorced, rule-beating, Joseph Wambaugh cop.  Most are somewhere in between.  I was somewhere in between.

chme

Jeff- we had folks tell us that blackjacks/ saps/ slungshot was illegal.  They are not- but they were illegal to carry concealed without a permit- or a badge.  

mark christian

When I lived in CA, virtually all martial arts weapons were illegal, except for police, and dealers who sold to police...which of course included me