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Army’s Next-Gen Squad Weapon ammo?

serfserf Member Posts: 9,217 ✭✭✭✭
in General Discussion
I wonder if this technology is going to make it into the military and if it will be able to be used in existing weapons designed for brass cartridges?
                                          serf

       

A Texas-based ammunition company recently unveiled its new 6.8mm cartridge, which the Army will consider for the Next Generation Squad Weapon (NGSW) effort designed to replace the 5.56mm M4A1 carbine and M249 squad automatic weapon in close-combat units.

True Velocity's 6.8mm composite-cased cartridge will be part of the NGSW auto-rifle, rifle and ammo prototype package being submitted by General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems Inc., which includes Beretta Defense Technologies, according to a recent True Velocity news release.



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    toad67toad67 Member Posts: 13,019 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2020
    Interesting, I wonder how they get so much more energy/velocity out of the polymer case as compared to a brass one? Kind of reminds me of the electronic cases that Remington came out with a while back.
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    badchrisbadchris Member Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭
    I had totally forgot about the EtronX rifle!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qP6Q9ZEsEo
    Enemies of armed self-defense focus on the gun. They ignore the person protected with that gun.
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    BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 6,474 ✭✭✭✭
    Sounds like a combination of Remingtons 6.8 cartridge they proposed for the military and the Natec PCA Spectrum polymer cases that were out 15yrs ago. Somewhere around here I still have some of the polymer cased 223. Bob
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    serfserf Member Posts: 9,217 ✭✭✭✭
    BobJudy said:
    Sounds like a combination of Remingtons 6.8 cartridge they proposed for the military and the Natec PCA Spectrum polymer cases that were out 15yrs ago. Somewhere around here I still have some of the polymer cased 223. Bob
      No electronic ignition and better polymer science with a steel head fixed on the bottom for the primer and extraction may pull it off this time around.  It may transcend back to existing weapons in time,don't you think. The weak link is the steel part being fasten to the polymer tube in my opinion.
                                             serf
                                                       

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    BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 6,474 ✭✭✭✭
    serf said:
    BobJudy said:
    Sounds like a combination of Remingtons 6.8 cartridge they proposed for the military and the Natec PCA Spectrum polymer cases that were out 15yrs ago. Somewhere around here I still have some of the polymer cased 223. Bob
      No electronic ignition and better polymer science with a steel head fixed on the bottom for the primer and extraction may pull it off this time around.  It may transcend back to existing weapons in time,don't you think. The weak link is the steel part being fasten to the polymer tube in my opinion.
                                             serf
                                                       

    It will depend on public acceptance. 50 or so years ago you could get all plastic shotgun shells ( Wanda and I believe Herters) that had a steel disk imbedded in the base to hold the primer and add strength for extraction. They struggled along selling these for 30 years. Worked fine but never gained any real popularity.
     The polymer rifle cases from 15 years ago were not reloadable so that was also a downside. For the military the reduction in weight might be a benefit but for the general public isn't much of a worry. For me it would be a solution in search of a problem because conventional ammunition has more positives, like reloadability and being able to do things like neck size to gain accuracy. Time will tell and it might find its way into something like inexpensive plinking ammo. Bob
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    WarbirdsWarbirds Member Posts: 16,834 ✭✭✭✭

    That article is Really Interesting.


    General Dynamics teams up with True Velocity. GD currently makes the M2 Machine gun and a host of other small arms- so GD bringing the weapon knowledge & True Velocity the ammo.

    Textron on the other hand has developed and proven their caseless ammo technology but never found a platform, so they have partnered with Heckler & Koch. HK will make the rifle & Textron will make the ammo. The Textron ammo will have an edge at least in magazine capacity to ver the True Velocity ammo. (Textron’s is a true case-less ammo.

    Then 3rd is Sig coming off a big win from the recent pistol competition & it appears they will go it alone and make the weapon and the ammo. I haven’t heard of any high tech ammo solution from Sig.

    This is an interesting program to keep an eye on.

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    Butchdog2Butchdog2 Member Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭✭
    What if the case itself was part of the propellant. Excluding steel head of course.
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    serfserf Member Posts: 9,217 ✭✭✭✭
    Butchdog2 said:
    What if the case itself was part of the propellant. Excluding steel head of course.
              Too gummy for that to happen unless they have no gunshot residue,which I doubt.
                                                   serf


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    gruntled2gruntled2 Member Posts: 560 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2020
    BobJudy said:


    It will depend on public acceptance. 50 or so years ago you could get all plastic shotgun shells ( Wanda and I believe Herters) that had a steel disk imbedded in the base to hold the primer and add strength for extraction. They struggled along selling these for 30 years. Worked fine but never gained any real popularity.
     The polymer rifle cases from 15 years ago were not reloadable so that was also a downside. For the military the reduction in weight might be a benefit but for the general public isn't much of a worry. For me it would be a solution in search of a problem because conventional ammunition has more positives, like reloadability and being able to do things like neck size to gain accuracy. Time will tell and it might find its way into something like inexpensive plinking ammo. Bob
    I remember the Wanda shells. You could reload them almost without any tools. All you needed was a way to remove & replace the primers. You did have to buy the plastic over shot end plugs I had a couple boxes that I reloaded many times. I wish they had made them in .410 as I could never get the crimp to hold on the $%#@ plastic shells. Of course you did also need dippers to measure the powder & shot.
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    BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 6,474 ✭✭✭✭
    gruntled2 said:
    BobJudy said:


    It will depend on public acceptance. 50 or so years ago you could get all plastic shotgun shells ( Wanda and I believe Herters) that had a steel disk imbedded in the base to hold the primer and add strength for extraction. They struggled along selling these for 30 years. Worked fine but never gained any real popularity.
     The polymer rifle cases from 15 years ago were not reloadable so that was also a downside. For the military the reduction in weight might be a benefit but for the general public isn't much of a worry. For me it would be a solution in search of a problem because conventional ammunition has more positives, like reloadability and being able to do things like neck size to gain accuracy. Time will tell and it might find its way into something like inexpensive plinking ammo. Bob
    I remember the Wanda shells. You could reload them almost without any tools. All you needed was a way to remove & replace the primers. You did have to buy the plastic over shot end plugs I had a couple boxes that I reloaded many times. I wish they had made them in .410 as I could never get the crimp to hold on the $%#@ plastic shells. Of course you did also need dippers to measure the powder & shot.
    Yup, the original Lee shot shell loader did a real good job with them. Somewhere around here I still have a full set of the Lee powder dippers. Not sure why I've kept them other than they are cool and no one else wants them. 😁 Bob
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    hillbillehillbille Member Posts: 14,170 ✭✭✭✭
    Bob one of the last gun shows I went to saw a set of those little plastic dippers on a table for $10, almost bought them then just said to myself "why??" I use  an electronic scale/dispenser.....
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    WarbirdsWarbirds Member Posts: 16,834 ✭✭✭✭

    Army Times article-as an update.

    40E685BB-11E3-46FE-9802-00783AC47355.jpeg


    https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/12/31/new-in-2021-army-to-pick-replacement-for-saw-and-m4-for-soldiers-marines-and-special-operators/


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    Sam06Sam06 Member Posts: 21,254 ✭✭✭✭

    I am not a fan of a Bullpup rifle.


    I think the 6.8 is not the best choice either.

    RLTW

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    serfserf Member Posts: 9,217 ✭✭✭✭
    https://forums.gunbroker.com/discussion/comment/11243197#Comment_11243197

    They will probably go with the Sig-Sauer Inc which is based here in The USA.I wonder how many Germans or Swiss still have interest in the company any longer anyway. Would not own a P-320 pistol they make, I bought a Walther instead. Nice pistol by the way.

    serf

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    chiefrchiefr Member Posts: 13,780 ✭✭✭✭

    I have been a fan of the 6.8 SPC for some time now. Considering the bullets weigh double that of the 5.56, they pack much more wallop as well as BC out to 1000 yards, I know as I shoot one.

    Cant visualize caseless or plastic sased ammo however, climatic conditions as well as heat from rapid cycling have prevented further development over the years. Happiness is still a metal case.

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    bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,664 ✭✭✭✭

    I think it is a waste of time and money all the way around seeking a new go bang battle weapon for the ground pounders. The platforms they have now function fine for conventional wars. If they are in trouble a drone can stop the threat.

    A magic bullet diameter of magic weight with magic cases and magic powder is still not much different in nature than the 30/30 smokeless round of the 19th century.

    I foresee energy weapons replacing brass, bullet and powder guns. Battery tech is key for the future, not chemical reaction guns.

    If they really want to get a new gun go with the proven 7.62 NATO round with some fancy bullet in the AR 10 platform. It gives troops a lot more punch and ammo is already made by the billions of rounds.

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    Sam06Sam06 Member Posts: 21,254 ✭✭✭✭

    I like the 6mm ARC from Hornaday


    https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/hornady-6mm-arc/376852

    RLTW

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    Grunt2Grunt2 Member Posts: 2,525 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2021

    It was my understanding they are looking to replace the brass with stainless steel cases for weight issues...

    I also recall in the 80's - 90's they were trying to experiment with caseless ammo...I don't recall the reasons they dumped the idea...

    (anyone still have a Daisy VL)???

    Retired LEO
    Combat Vet VN
    D.A.V Life Member
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    bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,664 ✭✭✭✭
    https://forums.gunbroker.com/discussion/comment/11243253#Comment_11243253

    I have a CCMG 6 ARC Resolute upper on order. I am looking forward to shooting it.

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    Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,275 ******

    Long term storage and in varied conditions might be the biggest deal breaker.

    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
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    tsavo303tsavo303 Member Posts: 8,900 ✭✭✭

    Be advised this in not the 6.8 spc, but a hotter round. Seems overbore. Especially for a sustained fire weapon

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    mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,456 ******
    edited January 2021
    https://forums.gunbroker.com/discussion/comment/11243255#Comment_11243255

    I still have one of the Voere VEC91 rifles which was designed to use caseless ammo:

    20210108_150502.jpg

    Next to the ammo you can see the pair of 15V photo batteries which fit into the rifle's pistol grip and generate the needed voltage to fire the round. Any time that a battery is packaged as being "special," you'd better believe that it translates into $$$!

    The rifle itself is quite nice, and chambered in any sensible small HV centerfire caliber- say .222 Remington, it would be a great shooter. As it is, the caseless ammo is virtually unobtainable, which means that the rifle has been sitting in one of my safes unfired for 25 years!

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    Grunt2Grunt2 Member Posts: 2,525 ✭✭✭✭

    Thanks Mark!!! I wasn't aware it was available on the civilian market...Pretty awesome at the same time very sad...

    Retired LEO
    Combat Vet VN
    D.A.V Life Member
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    nononsensenononsense Member Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭
    https://forums.gunbroker.com/discussion/comment/11243457#Comment_11243457


    This is the point so often missed when this subject comes up. These new 6.8 variations have been developed to operate at, ready?... 80,000 psi in the rifles. This means that the proof testing will hover around 100,000+ psi!

    Here is the General Dynamics entry:

    6.8mm-True-Velocity-Composite-Cased-General Dynamic_post.jpg

    Here is a bite-size article with some additional information:

    https://gatdaily.com/the-ngsw-three/

    There is even a video for all the folks to view!

    Best.

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